Why the Vilification of Tim Floyd Bothers Me So Much
by Maize n Brew Dave on Jun 12, 2009 12:04 PM CDT
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PrintThe presumption of innocence is something I take very, very seriously. It is one of the core tenants of American jurisprudence and, when you think about it, a cornerstone of our democracy. When someone is accused of a crime, serious or otherwise, our system is required to view them as innocent until proven guilty. Unfortunately that presumption does not extend to the media. Instead the media feels compelled to rush to judgment, as if its readers can't make up their own minds. Facts go by the way side as papers, Yahoo!, or ESPN trip over one another to be the first to "break the story." Whether it's rooted in fact or not is irrelevant.
What troubles me so much about the vilification of Tim Floyd is that, wait for it, he just might be innocent of all this. Imagine that. All this media smoke, but no fire. Let's see, where have I heard this before? Oh yeah. Duke. It scares me just how eriely similar Floyd's tar and feathering is to the near crucifiction of the Duke Lacrosse team less than three years ago.
As you probably recall, several members of the Duke Lacrosse team were indicted and arrested on the allegations that the beat and raped a stripper during a party. There was no evidence to corroborate the allegations. No witnesses. Massive inconsistencies in the accusers story. Criminal history for the accuser. While there was little to no evidence that anything had occurred, this did not stop ESPN or any of the East Coast media from painting the Duke Lacrosse team, and in particular the three players eventually charged, as violent, vicious, elitest, and (occasionally) racist jocks, who committed a crime because they felt they were entitled to do what ever they wanted.
But this wasn't the case. It turns out the stripper's story was fabricated. It was later stated by North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper that the charged players – Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty, and David Evans – were victims of a "tragic rush to accuse."
Now you can shake your head and say, "these two stories aren't remotely related. One is rape! The other is cash in hand!" If that is your response, then you're missing my point. The alleged crimes are irrelevant. What is relevant is that the media then, and now, rushed to judgment on a story before its facts were laid bare. A story without fact is fiction. And that seems to be the majority of what is being written about Mr. Floyd.
Personally, I have no dog in this fight. I am not a Tim Floyd supporter, especially after his mismanagement of my beloved Chicago Bulls. I don't root for USC, but I do enjoy friendships with those who do. By that same token I am also friends with those who are reveling in USC's troubles. So I suspect this column may paint me as chosing sides, regardless of what I intend. I'm not. If Tim Floyd did the things he is accused of, then may he receive the punishment he deserves. But until evidence is presented by someone other than a convicted felon who has a criminal, and financial interest, in promoting and saving his own skin, I remain unconvinced Tim Floyd deserves the stake burning he has received.
I'm not blind. In some ways Floyd was complicit in the obvious violations inherent in bringing OJ Mayo to USC. When you receive a call from a scumbag like Rodney Guillory, who is claiming to be able to deliver Mayo to USC, and then meet with him... well... you know you're starting down a potentially dangerous path. Regardless of how talented a player is, there are certain risks that aren't worth taking, and association with Guillory qualifies as such a risk. But Floyd did what most college coaches would do, he met with Mayo, liked him, and said "Come to USC" after Mayo quite confidently said he'd resurrect the morbund program.
But that's where the guilt ends. Floyd was dumb enough to think he could handle Mayo, plus keep Mayo's handlers at bay. That does not mean he was actively involved in their clique or that he was handing out benji's like halloween candy. Having Mayo at USC and actually handing out cash are not one and the same.
The allegations that Mayo was receiving oodles of cash from "sports agent" Rodney Guillory have been around even before Mayo was a High School junior. The ESPN OTL report in May of 2008, made everything public. Now, more than a year later, Johnson has changed his tune.
Johnson told the NCAA and federal authorities the ($1,000) payment took place in the week leading up to the 2007 NBA All-Star weekend in Las Vegas – three months after Mayo committed to USC while finishing his final year of high school. His attorneys said Johnson perceived the payment as an extension of Floyd’s gratitude for Guillory’s delivery of Mayo to USC.
"It was clearly money in contemplation of inducing O.J. to go through with the decision [to play at USC]," Murphy said. "That was the understanding that Louis had – that this was money from Floyd to Guillory for them to go out and have a great weekend. It was the inducement for Guillory’s efforts in delivering [Mayo to sign with USC]."
I have no idea how anyone can buy this. Hey, thanks. Here's $1,000. This is ludicrous. Mayo had ALREADY SIGNED HIS LETTER OF INTENT. Hell, he signed his letter of intent three months earlier, in November of 2006! The the allegations that Floyd handed $1,000 in cash to Guillory as "inducement for Guillory's efforts in delivering Mayo" are really as stupid as they sound. Floyd was inducing Guillory to do something he'd alredy done? Seriously. Say that out loud. "It was clearly money in contemplation of inducing O.J. to go through with the decision [to play at USC]," are you serious? Mayo signed on the dotted line. He had no choice. Had he attempted to go elsewhere it was up to USC whether or not to let him out. Mayo was going to USC or he was going to have to wait another year before he got to jump to the NBA.
I'm sorry, the allegations that are being paraded as fact are ridiculous. A 40 plus year-old basketball coach, who has coached successfully in the NBA and college levels, who has a $1,000,000 contract with USC, is handing $1,000 in cash to a dirtbag like Guillory, on a street corner in Beverly Hills, in the middle of the workday and work week, on a practice and travel day to Arizona?
How stupid does that sound? Really? This is so goddamn stupid I can't believe anyone is buying it. And the allegation isn't from a cop, or a teammate, or a booster. It's from an estranged member of Mayo's posse who less than a year earlier told Outside the Lines that he didn't think Floyd knew anything about what was going on.
So who is Louis Johnson? Johnson is a former sports reporter who actually rose to be Foxsports.com's college basketball producer in 2001. After changing jobs on several ocassions and having several business ventures fail, Johnson ended up unemployed. Unfortunately, he was arrested in 2005 for selling cocaine, though he did not serve substantial jail time. Johnson eventually hooked up with Rodney Guillory (for whom he later, allegedly funneled about $30,000 to Mayo) in 2006. Through Guillory's basketball tournaments, Johnson met Mayo and the two became friends. Despite being jailed in 2007 for an undisclosed reason, Johnson, Mayo and Guillory continued their relationship when Mayo began to recruit USC. From that point, the rest is varying stories.
What is clear is that Johnson funnelled a lot of money to Mayo (at least that's what's consistent in every account). What is also clear, and admitted by Johnson back in June 2008, is that he was expecting a payoff later down the road. Presumably whenMayo mde the NBA. Anyone rushing to judge Floyd really needs to read this article, Johnson's planning to write a book about all this.
Here is the breakdown of the allegation against Floyd:
On Feb. 14, 2007, Johnson and Guillory packed up Guillory’s black Infiniti SUV and were preparing for the drive from Los Angeles to Las Vegas to attend the NBA All-Star weekend. Before they left, Guillory informed Johnson several times that he had to meet with Floyd so the coach could give him cash for the trip. Sometime between 11 a.m. and 2 p.m., Guillory and Johnson headed toward Beverly Hills to meet with Floyd. During the drive, Johnson listened as Guillory and Floyd exchanged several cell phone calls as Floyd explained where the meeting would take place.
Upon arriving in Beverly Hills, Guillory pulled up to a stretch of cafes in the downtown shopping district, where Floyd was waiting on the sidewalk. Because there were no parking spaces, Guillory asked Johnson to circle the block in the SUV until Guillory was ready to be picked up. Johnson exited the passenger side of the vehicle, at which point Johnson saw Floyd and the two exchanged greetings. Johnson then got into the driver’s seat and proceeded to circle the block while Guillory and Floyd met.
After approximately 15 minutes, Johnson saw Guillory waiting on the curb in front of the stretch of cafes and pulled over to pick him up. Once Guillory was inside the vehicle, he produced a white envelope with cash inside. Guillory told Johnson that Floyd had given him "a grand," and Johnson was able to view $100 bills inside the envelope. He said he believed there appeared to be "substantially" more than $1,000, although he did not count the bills.
One of my favorite pieces of "information" in support of Johnson's allegations is this little nugget from Yahoo Sports Writers Robinson and Cole's May 12 article:
"Louis knew that if he didn’t tell the truth in that meeting, he’d be in the same boat that Martha Stewart was in for deceiving federal authorities," [his attonrey] said. "The agreement that he was under, the explicit agreement was that he had to be completely truthful in his statement. Lying to a federal agent is a whole crime unto itself. If you’re going to talk to them at all, you have to tell the truth."
I'm sorry, Martha Stewart? Really? This makes his story credible? (cackling laughter). Also read that paragraph again. "The agreement that he was under, the explicit agreement was that he had to be completely truthful in his statement." Agreement? Interesting. Sounds to me like Johnson got himself a deal with the feds to avoid jail time for attempting to defraud the goverment (tax evasion).
What I also love about the accusations included in Robinson and Cole's article is that they paint Johnson as an old hand in the print press, citing his 16 years in the media. What they fail to mention his numerous arrests, cocaine distribution charge, and book deal.
Further, Johnson admits he didn't see anything happen. Guillory just got back into the car and said Floyd had given him cash (hint: in court that's called hearsay). What we do know about Guillory is that he is a less that reputatable person. Since Johnson is allowed to speculate, why can't we? I've got even money that if this meeting did occur, Guillory had the money on him already and dumped it in Johnson lap to act as if he had some kind of control. And why does a guy driving an Infinit SUV need cash from someone else? Guillory was pocketing thousands from DBA (the sports marketing company that funded Guillory's pursuit of Mayo with the intent of landing him as a client) at this point, so him needing or even asking for "a grand" from Floyd make little sense. Finally, February 14, 2007 was a Wednesday, what the hell would the head coach of USC's men's basketball be doing hanging out on a corner in Beverly Hills in the middle of a work day?
I'm sorry, this makes no sense. There is ample additional information contained in the interviews of the yahoo! sports writers who "broke" the Johnson allegations. Conquest Chronicles pulled them together and you can listen to them at your leisure and draw your own conclusions.
Where's the flaw in my argument? Easy. What motive does Johnson have to throw Floyd under the bus? I don't have one. I can't for the life of me come up with a reason, from the outside at least, to explain why Johnson would point a finger at Floyd for no reason. My summation is that the extra cash "'substantially' more than $1,000, although he did not count the bills" alleged, is just another nail in Guillory's coffin as unreported "income." But that's a bit of a stretch. There's no motive here, and that, on its face, lends at least a shade of credibility to the allegation.
But that's it. Just a shade. A UCLA commenter left the following note on my critique of the Floyd situation yesterday:
But felons are incapable of telling the truth right? Yeah, that’s it. That makes me believe [Floyd].
Well, in this case, yes. Look at the allegations now, compared to 2008. One of my favorite lawyer tricks when something like this comes up is "Were you lying then or are you lying now?" The inability to tell a consistent story undermines Johnson's credibility. His financial interest in the outcome of this freakshow undermines his credibility. The fact he was looking at jail time before cutting a deal with the Feds undermines his credibility. The fact he's got a criminal record and was involved with intentionally and repeatedly undermining NCAA rules undermines his credibiltiy.
You don't have to be a lawyer, or even watch Law & Order, to know that people will sell their mothers down the river to save their own ass. The insta-credibility granted to Johnson baffles me. Further, how this story has anything to do with Reggie Bush baffles me even more. I don't get it. The only thread between these two scandals are the three letters the players wore. The amounts, the players, the actors, well... everything else is different. With Bush, it's really hard to doubt that shenanigans didn't occur. But by that same token, five years later, there's NOTHING THERE. People can yell and scream and say "Lookitthat!," but there hasn't been anything from the NCAA or California DA to indicate there's enough evidence to prosecute anything. With tim Floyd, to me at least, there's even less.
Certainly the fact that these two spectacles occurred at the same institution is troubling. But until the facts demonstrate the University was active or complicit in these violations, how can you hold them responsible for the acts of people (a) not associated with the University, (b) who had no interest in the success of the team outside of player X, and (c) were basically lampreys expecting to get paid off when player X hit the big time? This isn't a situation where an Oklahoma Booster was giving Rhett Bhomar $12,000 to (not) work one summer. The Mayo case is about people outside the program, boosters, etc., trying to benefit from a player's long term success.
Many writers and bloggers have speculated that Floyd is being used as a fall guy for USC's alleged misdeeds. They are probably right. Floyd has said "to hell with it, I don't need this" packed up his office and gone home. People are already speculating whether he'll ever coach again. News Flash: when nothing comes of this, Floyd will be back on the bench at a BCS school.
Only Floyd knows if this really happened. Sure Floyd could've issued a statement saying I didn't do anything with this bozo, but that would only ignite the media feeding frenzy over his response, how Johnson will respond, how this affects USC, what will the recruits do, etc... Honestly, Floyd's best move was to stay quiet and let the stupidity of these allegations been seen for what they are.
But instead of looking at these allegations and thinking about them, the media has condemned Floyd. He must've done it. Burn him! Build a bridge out of him! Burn Him! There is no presumption of innocence.
Only a rush to judge.
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For some reason...
I read this: " they paint Johnson as an old hand in the print press, citing his 16 years in the media. What they fail to mention his numerous arrests, cocaine distribution charge, and book deal."
And all I could think about was SEC football…
It’s going to be very interesting to see how this all pans out… one thing that annoys me is that you have an awful lot of “smoke” surrounding the school after the Reggie Bush fiasco, and now this, at some point you have to think that some sort of action is going to take place right? Right??
GO BLUE! http://www.maizenbrew.com/
Pretty much a guarantee
USC’s in trouble. There’s just too much smoke, despite the fact the NCAA can’t prove anything yet.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Jun 12, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Lots of Smoke, but no....
fire. There remains no hard evidence that USC staff committed any infractions. We are in the media capital of the world in a cesspool of corrupt sports agents. USC owns LA and is the dominate game in town. We operate in a proverbial landmine for amateur athletics. Thus, our staff are diligent about complying with the rules. Don’t believe the hype. Look for evidence.
Troy will fall.
You’re an attorney? I’m taking the bar soon.
Unless you are a pure paper pusher and never attended more than one depo in your life or have never read more than one witness’s testimony, you will know that even the most credible person in the world has at best a tenuous grasp of what actually happened. Time plays a factor as well—recollection becomes more attenuated over time. I have seen the most trustworthy witness tell a substantially different story than other equally trustworthy eyewitnesses. This is the nature of the human mind.
We assume that Johnson is probably lying, or is at least more credible than whatever other accounts are out there (I have to ask, where is Floyd’s, the crucified one?). Johnson was busted for cocaine NOT for PERJURY. The argument that Trojan apologists continuously advance is that a felon is lying because they are a felon (sort of like kicking someone off your board for something they say on a completely different board. And Nestor is the arch-fiend?). This is a fallacy. You can be a completely honest felon, trust me I have seen it. You can also be a white collar scum bag who lies with every breath and who never gets caught. According to the apologists, the felon shouldn’t be trusted unless of course you are a double murderer and get your jersey hung on a historic stadium.
Want to know why the mafia was so tough to crack before RICO? Same thing, how do we believe the testimony of murderers and felons when they talk? At some point the government started to believe these guys and assemble cases around them. You get the testimony then you get other evidence but the case breaks because you get that guy to turn.
Furthermore, it makes no sense to me that if Johnson has a book to push, one that ultimately depends on his credibility, would lie to destroy that credibility. How does that jibe?
Herein lies the problem as I see it: It is possible to do an end-around of NCAA restrictions by taking a kid who surrounds himself with runners from a high-powered agent and gets money on the side. If something happens, the agent didn’t do anything wrong legally, the runners are felons so they shouldn’t be believed and the school turns a blind eye and simply states that "we can’t monitor everything." The school is benefiting getting the star athlete but as long as they turn a blind eye as to what is going on, they can deny it all.
And tell me, what is the difference between an agent and a booster? Let’s say a booster gives a $100 dollar handshake on his own inclination. Let’s say an agent has a runner give a kid $100. What is the different if the school turns a blind eye to either transaction? They are benefitting in both but the simple fact that the booster attended school makes that transaction more suspect? I’m not buying it because from the point of view of NCAA this is precisely what they should be preventing.
Lastly, who should be responsible for insuring that athletes follow NCAA rules? The agents who often times can’t be prosecuted? The kids themselves (we know that’s out)? The NCAA which doesn’t have a giant staff to do this? The media who are often times biased (LA Times) and can’t really do anything themselves.
How about the schools? They are closest to the action, have the staff, and have an interest in making sure their athletes obey the rules. Anything less than this is poppycock. USC should have paid more attention to who was around its star athletes plain and simple. Now they are going to pay for it.
Silly Bruins, Floyd is Innocent
Great article, Dave. I’d like to shed a little more light on Johnson’s possible motives, which counter 102’s overly-simplistic contention – e.g. “The argument that Trojan apologists continuously advance is that a felon is lying because they are a felon. This is a fallacy.” Louis Johnson had myriad motivations to lie. Below is a synopsis of some of the primary motivating factors for drug felon Johnson:
1) Louis Johnson was in cahoots with Guillory as a runner for BDA Sports. Johnson was in the payment stream from BDA to Guillory and Mayo, at least partially funneled through Guillory’s fraudulent charity. Johnson was a part of the Mayo “posse”. Thus, Johnson is a suspect perpetrator in the federal tax evasion and charity fraud case. Johnson is represented by criminal defendant Anthony Salerno, whose dinstinguished list of clients includes child molesters, rapists, and murderers. Johnson is not a Good Samaritan trying to help. He is a suspect of federal crimes.
2) Louis Johnson was booted out of the Mayo “posse” by Guillory. The broadly held opinion on this action is that the NBA might frown on Mayo having a drug felon in his camp. This could adversely impact Mayo in the draft. Thus, Guillory was asked to boot Johnson from the “posse”. This action cut off Johnson from continued compensation as a runner by BDA Sports. This action also cut off Johnson from a sizable windfall bonus from the future BDA Sports agency commission from Mayo’s NBA contract and from future employment with Mayo’s post-NBA draft posse (Mayo eventually fired BDA before the draft). This gave Johnson an axe to grind. His pot of gold was taken away from him. Who advised Guillory to fire Johnson? BDA Sports, Mayo himself, and quite possibly, Mayo’s coach and draft advisor, Tim Floyd.
3) With no pot of gold after so much time invested in Mayo, Johnson was pissed. Johnson was also a perptrator in a federal crime. So, what did Johnson do? He decided to go public with his story to ESPN. As your video clearly shows, Johnson acknowledged at the time that USC had no knowledge of BDA, Guillory, and Mayo’s illicit activities. What were his motives for going public with his story? Well, he had an axe to grind against Guillory and BDA Sports (and possibly Floyd). If Louis Johnson wasn’t going to get paid, then damnit, neither was Guillory and BDA. Secondly, an alternative compensation plan was created. Let’s write a tell-all book. See http://www.conquestchronicles.com/2009/6/12/907862/louis-johnsons-book
4) The vendetta was underway with the ESPN OTL story and the literary agent for the juicy tell-all book signed. Criminal defender Anthony Salerno was hired to defend Johnson against the feds’ case, and help publicize the scandal for the book deal. How was Louis Johnson able to afford a high profile, scumbag criminal defender? Admittedly broke with few employment opportunities, Johnson was going to pay Salerno with proceeds from Johnson’s book. Johnson had no other meaningful source of income since his ex-communication from the sports agent world for being a rat.
5) USC hoops went on to a successful 2009 campaign winning the conference tourney and taking 2nd place finisher MSU down to the wire in the dance. OJ went on to a hugely successful NBA rookie season. The Mayo NCAA investigation was getting nowhere as there was simply NO EVIDENCE that USC staff directly committed any violations. The only thing USC was culpable of was, perhaps, poor judgement for allowing Mayo to hang out with Guillory during his time at USC. But, it’s a free country. USC does not have the right to choose friends for its students, nor the right to monitor their off-campus activities. And, show me a lottery pick NBA draftee without a posse?
6) With the story dying and as a suspect of a closing-in federal investigation, Johnson and counsel Salerno now decided to up the ante. Hence, the Yahoo story broke of a direct payment from Floyd to Guillory. This event was not witnessed by Johnson, the day in question was a practice and travel day for the hoops team to Zona, the thought of Floyd giving an agent cash in broad daylight in Beveryly Hills was absurd, Mayo had signed a binding LOI with the Trojans months prior, and the thought of $1k to Guillory who was already receiving $100ks from BDA was asinine. This story was simply implausible without direct evidence or other corroboration. Yet, Yahoo Sports takes the bait and runs with it.
7) The sensational story involving a big name coach at a big time university blows up the MSM. Criminal defender Anthony Salerno launches a media blitz in the papers and radio of SoCal. The name Louis Johnson is now indelibly etched in the minds of the public. Yahoo ran the story based on heresay with no corroborating evidence. Johnson and Salerno hit the press circuit to regain national media attention. The book deal can now go through with the momentum from this media blitz. Johnson and Salerno can both get paid.
8) Additionally, Salerno has utilized a classic defense attorney gambit – point the finger at others to raise doubt about your own illicit affairs. BDA wasn’t solely paying Guillory and Johnson. Now, Johnson claims that USC was also paying Guillory and Johnson (the money was to be used by both for a Las Vegas weekender). Johnson has just broadened and confused the federal case and improved his chances for a favorable plea deal. He has offered up more rats to lessen the glow of the harsh light of justice on his own rat. He has also gained an additional bargaining chip for himself in his own legal defense from future litigation from USC. Under CA law, universities may sue agents who entice scholarship athletes to violate their amateur status with the NCAA (see USC v Caron).
Johnson had plenty of motivation to lie. There is no doubt that he did lie, per his YouTube video where he clearly states that USC had no knowledge of Mayo benfits. Did he lie to ESPN, or did he lie to Yahoo when he said USC did have knowledge? Regardless, he is a proven liar. He has now successfully hyped his book to recoup compensation for his investment in Mayo and for his attorney. He has deflected accountability as a suspect in the federal case by pointing at other suspects and he has launched a pre-emptive defense in future litigation from USC. Louis Johnson is a proven liar. He is an ex-felon suspected of major crimes singing like a canary to implicate others. His scumbag attorney is spinning with a media blitz that would make Speidi envious.
Today, there remains no evidence of activity by USC in regards to Mayo in violation of NCAA rules. Mayo was cleared by the NCAA’s own clearinghouse. Tim Floyd has done nothing wrong, other than perhaps, exercise poor judgement. If he were guilty, he would have taken the Zona job a few months ago or earlier job opportunities in 2008. Tim Floyd has been unfairy vilified, and we are all suckers for buying into this scandal. And, the Trojans’ inferior LA brothers from public West LA JC are, and forever will be, quite silly, gullible, transparent, and envious little baby blue teddy bears.
Occam's Razor
Overly simplistic? Why thank you man with tu-tu. I would rather have a bear that represents my state than a little naked man representing history’s greatest losers. What exactly am I jealous of? Your superior arguing skills? Yeah right. Tell you what, I’ll chop you down a bit then we can let the non-ideologues decide. Your not going to like that because its too late for Troy.
First off, Guillory was involved in the Jeff Trepagnier SCandal at SUC. So, he burns SUC once and then they let him back on campus because? Apparently, this guy wasn’t fooled way back when. I noticed you glanced over this highly incriminating fact. So other people were smelling something fishy but SUC doesn’t? Either they are crooked or they are incredibly ignorant. You can pick which because I think you should be punished for both.
Notice that it’s always the scumbag and never the institution that is found time and time again to be associated with them? Simplistic? Maybe, but if I was a mobster and let all my stupid underlings do the dirty work, I would have it made. That is what SUC thinks they are going to do but their arrogance has led to multiple SCandals which they cannot avoid now. The simple fact is SUC keeps getting nailed with giant SCandals, one right after the other speaks volumes. Simple fact is, Oklahoma, Alabama, and any other university that was nailed for first self-reporting, and then getting the book thrown at them by the NCAA, are ANGRY that nothing is being done about SUC.
Sure Johnson is less than savory but tell me this, what does Floyd got to say? What does the university have to say? They have nothing to say because the simple fact is they have everything to hide. It doesn’t matter how gullible we as Bruins are, its how gullible the rest of the country is after hearing of SCandal after SCandal. So go ahead and ponder that naked man.
by Bruins102NCAA on Jun 15, 2009 12:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Dude? Where's the chop-down?
You talk a bit of a talk, then you let everyone down. . . .that’s what SHE ALWAYS says about you, I guess?
Why did you have to do this? How many times have I placed you back in your cage? Too numerous to mention.
For someone about to take (but pass?) the bar- you look just as silly here as you do over at Conquest Chronicles- and trust me, it could be A LOT WORSE for you had I not taken it so easy with you these past couple of threads. Everyone from CC and BN looking at this KNOW THIS IS TRUE. (so before I offer sound proof of this, yet ONCE AGAIN- lemme ask you- have you been drinking again? FTR: he’s already admitted to doing this)
To wit:
(". . And tell me, what is the difference between an agent and a booster?)- there is no difference, receiving direct benefits (cash/merchandise/loan/ or otherwise) from either agent or booster is a violation of NCAA rules on amateurism and “pay-to-play” bylaws.
(“. . . but the simple fact that the booster attended school makes that transaction more suspect? I’m not buying it because from the point of view of NCAA this is precisely what they should be preventing.”)- No, any beneficial transaction by either a booster or agent is treated equally as a major violation and further- the NCAA is trying to prevent both from occurring which is why there are rules, bylaws, and codes of conduct on their organizational charter for teams and concerned personnel to abide by. The problem herein is a matter of the NCAA having absolutely no subpoena investiture to compel testimony/statements from ANY witnesses nor former players who are no longer active students attending school. (Both Bush and Mayo were ex-Trojans when the allegations of impropriety surfaced. Hey! I didn’t create these stories, facts are facts and as such. . . .this is what the NCAA, USC, all pertinent parties concerned, and the general public have to accept as their equation.)
(. . .Lastly, who should be responsible for insuring that athletes follow NCAA rules? The agents who often times can’t be prosecuted?)- Oh. My. Goodness. Gracious! Mercy. Me! Woe be to those who should suffer the misfortune to be possibly represented by Brui-gotNC’s? Here’s a minor link to AGENTS AND RUNNERS being sued (NOT PROSECUTED! Dude, pull it out already. . .I think you’re lying about the “bar” shit, aren’t you? I’m in science-research, never took a class on anything remotely pertaining to law, but I thought one can only be prosecuted by a government attorney? read: City Attorney, District Attorney, or Attorney General. So, the reason why agents haven’t been prosecuted is because (I think?) there aren’t any penal codes on the books throughout the US regarding student/athlete and agent contact. Tell me I’m wrong?) Now, how about that? Let’s bundle another one of your weak remarks here, due to it’s relevance and parallel: (". . .How about the schools? They are closest to the action, have the staff, and have an interest in making sure their athletes obey the rules.)- First off, as it applies to USC Compliance, they royally blew this one in Mayo’s case. But, the fact that Mayo- who had ??‘s regarding his freshman eligibility, yet was cleared by the NCAA clearinghouse had some in the offices of USC Compliance a bit asleep at the wheel. However, there is no excuse for AD Garrett and Coach Tim Floyd to have allowed Guillory anywhere near the basketball program, even though it was Guillory who initially made contact with Floyd and was an integral part in putting Mayo in a Trojan uniform. On this part of your post- I’ll acquiesce. Now in saying that, the case with Bush is mutually exclusive on many fronts. First, the student/agent contact was made AWAY from campus, and not within the scope, realm, or radar of USC AD nor Compliance of observation. Second, an Impala with tricked out rims TAKES A SERIOUS BACK SEAT to the BMW 740 IL which I was driving to our beloved campus. Trust me, an Impala is like an Escort. And both are no different than a VW Bug, Chrysler Mini, or Prelude, or mini SUV that students are equipped to commute to school in. Where’s the beef, B102? (baby-blue lenses again? FTR: he’s already admitted to wearing them)
Here’s the thing: as a researcher to a lawyer wannabe, here’s a link to what you should know regarding both the Bush and Mayo issues that USC WILL DEFINITELY explore “post-ruling” regarding the institutional oversight and lack of control investigations regarding the University of Southern California. Right here buddy.
Dave and loyal Maize & Brew followers: I apologize, as I’m sure those of my CC-brethren will also attest to as well, for bringing this funny-little rivalry stuff over to your nationally quoted and wonderful blog. You already know “I heart you Dave”, it’s just that you can fully understand the scope and sincerity when I’ve often rhetorically asked, “Got a Bruin up your ass today?” Seriously, it happens. . . .ad nauseum. If I may add- what this continues to be, both equally and respectively- Trojans aren’t immune from this I’m sure, is a case of “Argumentum ad hominem” – an argument based on the character of men/institution, and not on subject matter at hand- with regards to validity of truth to statements made for allegations of Floyd paying off Guillory- and thus, reasons for his resignation from coaching basketball at USC. (prolly didn’t know what you were getting into, hah Dave. Baby-bruins??? )
So, in closing Bruins102NCAA- THIS IS THE WAY TO CHOP. (dude, you’re so lucky I’m not gonna link to all the times I’ve reluctantly (yet, necessarily) have had to do this to your silliness.)
For what it’s worth. . . . .good luck with the Bar. To be quite hones, I’m surprised you even got past the LSAT?
Comer4tide to Nico2.0: "How come I've never heard of any of your random songs?"
Todd to Comer: "Because if you had, he wouldn't listen to it. BOOM. Roasted."
Nico to Todd: "Shouldn't you be off voguing somewhere?"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 15, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Greggie Doyel and B102 are Bosom Buddies
Two peas in a pod. You two are a match made in heaven. The NCAA Clearinghouse gave OJ Mayo the green light. Should member institutions have higher standards than their own governing body? To date, there remains no evidence of illicit actions from USC or its staff regarding Mayo and Bush, and no NCAA accusations have been made after years of investigating. What you have is two of the highest profile athletes in their respective sports at the time attracting a lot of bugs. If SC recruited UCLA-level athletes, then these problems would never manifest. But then, we wouldn’t be champions.
B102 is a yellow journalist groupie trying to wag the dog by its tail. People who live in glass houses with a Neuweasel should not throw stones. Love your blog, Dave. Fight on, Wolverines!
USC Arrogance
Maize n Brew Dave,
I appreciate your analysis, but I think you are wrong on several counts. I am also not fully convinced that Floyd passed cash to Guillory, but something must be wrong if the head basketball coach of a major university abruptly resigns and all the players and new recruits just bolt.
However, this investigation is not just about Bush and Mayo. What is truly being missed in the MSM reporting and blog discussions of the potential USC NCAA violations is numerous other instances of “lack of institutional control” by USC in general and Pete Carroll in particular. (Well documented by Bruins Nation – http://www.bruinsnation.com/2008/5/15/508939/pete-carroll-tim-floyd-usc). There are numerous instances were Carroll has acted inappropriately as a coach, turned a blind eye, or just plain lied. Some examples:
1. Carroll allowed O.J. Simpson onto his team’s practice field and into his team’s locker room to meet and greet his players
(http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2002-12-28-oj-usc_x.htm).
2. Carroll allowed Frostee Rucker (a multiple sex offender) to transfer to USC. Rucker attended Colorado State University where he played football his Freshman year until losing his athletic scholarship after female students at the university complained of assault and an incident of indecent exposure when Rucker allegedly streaked across campus after a night of drinking and partying (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostee_Rucker). Rucker was subsequently arrested twice for domestic violence, once at USC and once as a Cincinnati Bengal.
3. Carroll yelled “f**k you” three times at Oregon Head Coach Mike Bellotti on national television (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqmmxOsJW1Y).
4. Carroll denied knowing his star player and Heisman Trophy candidate was not getting money from an agent (http://www.amazon.com/Tarnished-Heisman-Reggie-College-Six-Figure/dp/1416577564). All the students at USC knew Bush was driving around in a tricked out car. How could the entire football staff not know?
5. Carroll lied about making a conference call to Reggie Bush while recruiting Joe McKnight. Why would McKnight state in his first press conference while describing his meeting with Carroll (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOtZ-o7GfUI), but change his mind after consulting with his “advisors?”
These are just a few examples. There are dozens of other instances where the USC coaches have set the tone for ignoring NCAA violations and allowing student-athlete misbehavior. Just check out the Bruins Nation website noted above.
I understand that most colleges have some difficult students. If you have one hundred young men, sooner or later at least a few of them are going to get in trouble academically, with the law, or from undue influence by a booster or agent. No college is perfectly clean, but USC is particularly shameful. If you were a star high school football or basketball player, would you rather go to a school that made you stick to the rules and punished you if you didn’t, or to a school that covered up your misdeeds.
The distinguishing attribute should be how an institution polices itself and how it responds to potential violations. Many universities closely monitor their student-athletes and administer punishments when needed. Many universities also self-report potential NCAA violations.
This is not the case, however, with USC under AD Mike Garrett and Coach Pete Carroll (http://www.latimes.com/sports/college/basketball/la-sp-streeter31-2009may31,1,6203099.column). At a recent booster meeting, someone asked Carroll if USC was ever going to emerge from the NCAA doghouse. Carroll answered by saying he’d long wanted to build a program where "everyone was coming after us." Such scrutiny, he gushed, was the price paid "for being on top."
This is the kind of hubris and arrogance that prevents institutions from regulating themselves. And it will be USC’s downfall.
Hubris and aggrogance weren't my point
Guys,
I appreciate the comments, and I appreciate the dialogue, but we’re getting a tad bit off topic here. The point I was making is that Coach Floyd, who to my knowledge has never been linked to any kind of scandal prior to this (college or pro), has been trashed in the media based on the changing comments of a convicted felon. And absolutely nothing else.
Doesn’t that bother anyone? Replace USC with UCLA and think about it. If Holand was accused by some unsavory scumbag of handing out cash, would you defend him and ask to see more evidence? I know, I know, it’ll never happen. But think about it. This has nothing to do with Bush, Carroll, or SCandal after SCandal. This is not a piece about the football team’s legal issues. This is solely about the presumption of innocence. That’s what I’m writing about. The fact that it’s a USC Coach is largely irrelevant, with the exception that the presumed misdeeds of the football program are coloring everyone’s impression of the events.
I’ll say it, if Thad Matta or Tom Izzo were alleged to have paid cash to a player by someone like Guillory or Johnson, I’d want more evidence before I tarred and feathered the guy. That’s just how I am. As far as I know, Floyd was clean in his past life and I don’t see any reason why this kid or these bozo’s would cause him to change. You can’t let whatever you presume Carroll or Bush did for the football team color what’s going on on the basketball side. Further Carroll and Bush have nothing to do with what is being alleged by Johnson!
Take a step back. Read the piece without thinking about the football team. Read it with thinking about what you read on the message boards. Read it from a different perspective than your own.
The facts alleged don’t add up. That’s why I wrote this piece.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Jun 15, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions
It’s definitely nice to read a different perspective on this whole mess. It’s hard for a lot of people to understand the occasional level of rivalry between our schools (Michigan & Ohio State at least have a little distance between them) so the closest you’ll probably get from any Bruin is “eh, there’s an off chance it all doesn’t add up” while the best you’ll probably get from a Trojan is “eh, where there’s smoke, there’s fire.. but Tim Floyd almost certainly didn’t give any cash.. but he did exercise some lapses in judgment”.
Honestly, I sometime wonder why UCLA fans even care about the whole situation as much as we sometimes do. A bit of schadenfreude? Certainly. But to the point where some of us are rabid about it? I prefer to read about my teams & admire the chaos from afar. UCLA has it’s own challenges to work through.
Thanks for the write up and analysis (& to Paragon for directing some of us over here)
Good stuff
Thanks Impaulv.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Jun 15, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
AMEN!!
An unbiased, non-emotional perspective…
That is all I have asked for in all of this. If we’re guilty then the hammer should fall, but until ALL the facts are in we should be skeptical because as you said it doesn’t add up. It should bother all of us when ANYONE is accused without all the facts being put forth and when the accused has not been allowed to defend himself. Floyd has now gone underground and we won’t know his side of the story for a while now and that does a disservice to the process and those who care about it regardless of what side you are on.
I can see where our rivals will jump all over this…that’s what rivals do, but when there is lumping in of this issue or that issue that is where perspective is lost.
Not surprising…
You could have timed it with an egg timer how fast USC detractors were going to go off the reservation to make this about PC/RB and the football program. I should have laid odds so I could have made a few bucks.
I wonder how 102 would feel if it was his client being persecuted in the way that Floyd has…would he expect us to reasonable and rational until all the facts are in? I could guarantee it…so why not with Floyd? Oh that’s right..because you have blind hatred for all things USC. You give them no quarter. The only thing hatred does is blind you…
Moving on, I will say no more here, as that would not be proper form.
Thanks Dave…Sorry our little skirmish polluted your great site!
Dave
I get your point but what I was trying to say in the above post was that people did see the impropriety before this current scandal.
Guillory was involved in the Jeff Trepagnier scandal
Rational Trojans like Bixxie and Paragon (even though he banned me for comments on another board) recognize this. This is the crux of my argument: There were indications that Floyd had problems in 2006 when Mayo was being shopped around by Guillory.
So, Bix, I would love to split hairs with you all day. I don’t have the time. The nation will decide, not us. Oh yeah, you’re dumb, I’m not. I rule, you don’t. There.
by Bruins102NCAA on Jun 15, 2009 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Here we go again Lawyer to or not?
Why don’t you guys pay attention to your own Boosters and program ie. Tennis program giving money to the equivalent of 15 Fb scholarships. Now take your Bong, go to the bathroom lift the toilet seat and poor water into toilet then flush and don’t refill bong put on shelf in garage. Now go back and study and forget about USC (wanted to go there but no $$) and get ready for the toughest test in your life.
Paul D. Kelley
by so.cal.native1952 on Jun 16, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Silly, Gutless Bruins
Dave, love your post on Floyd. And, apologize on behalf of my inferior LA cross-town brothers for hijacking your comments. I’ll be brief in response. The Bruins are dejected, apathetic and moribund after years of failure in college football. They are quite jealous of their big brothers across town and will stop at nothing to try to bring down the almighty Trojans. Quite sad that they have to post their jealous rants on a Michigan blog. As you can see, their rants are just so futile and silly:
1) OJ was acquitted of all criminal charges and was a free man walking at the time. So what. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/3/newsid_2486000/2486673.stm)
2) Frostee was accused but not found guilty of assault at CSU. And, baby blue Bruins should be the last college to complain about streaking. (http://laist.com/2007/06/25/the_ucla_undie.php)
3) Carroll was comPETing. Bellotti is a douche. This video is awesome! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqmmxOsJW1Y)
4) Bush drove an ‘86 Chevy Impala. Trust me, this car did not garner attention at USC. (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ozsihb8r_Q/RyErhLTCCNI/AAAAAAAAAi0/fGSKIJR0CiA/s400/PA110360.JPG) Also, LA is a cesspool of sports agents. SC can control what happens on campus, but USC has no jurisdiction over a scholarship athlete’s family 200 miles away.
5) Again, so? These types of minor violations happen all the time. Just ask our Michigan friends. (http://www.thelantern.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticle&ustory_id=9743f795-a595-463a-b606-b8046656adf3)
Perhaps Bruins who live in glass houses in the slum of Westwood should not throw stones? (http://www.yardbarker.com/college_basketball/articles/John_Wooden_recruiting_violation_at_UCLA/72693)
Dave, love your blog and your judicious sensibilities. Again, I apologize for the jealous whine that has traveled all the way from west LA to Michigan. We’ll take our inferior little brothers out behind the woodshed and teach them some manners on Nov 28. Hope to see the maize and blue in the Rose Bowl soon! Fight on, Wolverines.
I dare you
to do a search of wearesc.com or CC and see how much your average SUC douche-bag thinks of the Big-10, let alone Michigan, let alone a public institution.
Almighty? LOL!
by Bruins102NCAA on Jun 15, 2009 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Dude you need to change the wine in your Crack bong
What state are you trying to pass the bar it better not be NY or Cali because you will not make it JUNIOR.
Paul D. Kelley
by so.cal.native1952 on Jun 15, 2009 2:14 AM CDT up reply actions
It's CA
And I save my logic and reason for homicide cases. That’s called the judicious use of one’s intellect: Using it for the sake of justice and not for the sake of defending an athletic department who’s time has come. Besides I’m sure I will eventually be put in a position where I will have to prosecute a Trojay homicide defendant, but rest assured that when that day arrives I will recuse myself.
However, I suggest we not speak about each other personally. It makes me uncomfortable and angry.
AND you had better use punctuation, JUNIOR, if you want to pass any bar…
by Bruins102NCAA on Jun 15, 2009 2:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Better Study Up for that Bar Exam
….so you’re a newbie assistant DA who hasn’t passed the bar yet? How many tries are they going to give you for that $36k/yr job? You should have studied harder so that you might have been admitted to USC. Then, you could have gotten a real lawyer job in corporate, securities, or entertainment law and made some actual money. At least you have your fUCLA principles to hold on to.
Yah I second that motion
My uncle was a district court judge and after seeing him in action I knew corpoate law was a better choice. Most of the DAs I know went to western st. , so 102 has wasted a lot of money going to Pucla.
Paul D. Kelley
by so.cal.native1952 on Jun 15, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Amusing
Man if I had a dollar for every time I listened to a douche-bag tell me I couldn’t do something, I’d have a lot of dollars.
The fact that I have 4 other siblings that didn’t graduate from high-school and lived on the street for a time, means that I have accomplished more and have risen above more adversity than you ever will in your pampered $UC life.
It would figure that you’re the typical corporate law idiot. They’re are many in school, those who dreams of being partner but when the cold hard facts of 70 hour weeks and 10-1 associate/partner ratio hit, they realize this world is more than just money. Daddy can only employ you as a partner after you prove your mettle. You make yourself feel better by telling yourself how better you have it than a government lawyer, please, learn the facts before you spout bull. I’m not saying that’s you but you construct an image and I can too.
How do I know you don’t have the facts? How can you be a DA without passing the bar? It’s called a law clerk. Go look up all the perks and the pay rate and it’s not too bad. Satisfying too, keeping the predators like OJ off the street; keeping them from eating your children.
This just goes to demonstrate the $UC mind: Very small, uninformed, and arrogant. Q.E.D.
by Bruins102NCAA on Jun 15, 2009 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Response to DFWTrojan
I wrote a comment in response to Maize n Brew Dave’s remarks regarding Tim Floyd. I wanted to point out that the problem with USC is that the athletic program is mired in arrogance and hubris, and that this has led to the problems they are now facing with the NCAA. Unfortunately, many (but definitely not most or all) of the USC student body and alumni are also caught up in this attitude and culture.
Thank you DFWTrojan. You have affirmed my basic assertion with your crass and arrogant responses to my comments.
First, I was not "hijacking" anyone’s comments or blog. As an alumnus of both UCLA and the University of Michigan, I frequently read the SBNation blogs for both of these schools to catch the latest information regarding sports. After reading Dave’s comments, I felt he and his readers needed more information regarding the context of the Floyd resignation.
Second, I am not "dejected, apathetic and moribund." Nor am I "silly or gutless." (Really DFW, the name calling is a bit much for someone you don’t know.) In addition, as an alumnus of UCLA and UM, I am especially not "jealous" of you or your institution.
In fact, I did four years of post-graduate training at USC and I was an assistant professor there for another four years. I like USC. I have many friends and family that attended and still attend USC. It is a great academic institution.
My concern is not that USC has been demonstrably better in football than UCLA for the past several years (don’t forget the 1990s when UCLA won 8 years in a row), but how they are achieving this superiority.
Lots of USC alumni believe Carroll is a savior, but from my perspective, he has run a despicable and unworthy program. The evidence for this is available for anyone to review from the Bruins Nation website (search ‘scandal 3rd edition’). It’s a shame for USC, the Pac-10, and the NCAA in general.
Unfortunately, I believe Carroll has also set the tone for USC’s basketball program. Floyd probably figured that if Carroll got away with cheating and lying for several years while the university turned a blind eye, then he needed to employ the same shady methods to get to the top.
I also find your responses to my comments regarding Carroll very troubling.
1. Yes, OJ was acquitted of the murder charges. However, he was found liable for the deaths of two people. But, he did kill his ex-wife and her friend. (Would you argue otherwise?) This makes him a murderer. Perhaps not legally, but a murderer nevertheless. Would you invite OJ to your home to meet your family? Well, the question is then, why did Carroll allow murderers, gangster, agents, etc hang around the sidelines and in the locker rooms? The underlying message to his student-athletes was that it is okay to hang with these guys.
2. From Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostee_Rucker ): "ESPN aired an episode of Outside The Lines documenting the misbehavior of Frostee Rucker in which female students from Tustin High School, Colorado State University, and the University of Southern California came forward and identified Rucker as the person who had exposed himself, assaulted, and even raped some female students. Charges were filed but there were no convictions." There are also reports that Rucker raped an 11 year old girl in middle school ( http://kegeratornation.com/?p=210 ) and was arrested for domestic violence and vandalism as a professional football player ( http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2493684 ). I ask again, would you invite Rucker to your home to meet your family? Yet, Carroll brought him in from Colorado to play for him. The underlying message to the student-athletes is that it is okay to behave like this and get away with it at USC.
3. Pete Carroll yells "f**k you" to Mike Bellotti (another head coached) and that’s okay because he is a "douche-bag." Really? You’re proud that the head football coach of your school yells obscenities on national TV at another coach. Really?
4. More evidence of a lack of trying. Turning a blind eye does not excuse the administration at USC, it only makes them guilty of lack of institutional control.
5. So you admit Carroll was lying, but it is okay because everyone does it? Well, everyone doesn’t lie and cheat. You just want to believe this to justify Carroll’s behavior.
DFW, I am not sure if you are just trying to act tough or that you really believe in your crude and vulgar comments. You don’t know me and you call me "silly and gutless," but you give a pass to all the numerous incorrigible characters that wore a USC uniform because they were not found guilty in the criminal justice system.
Well, the standard for the NCAA is not the same as criminal court and they will not be as forgiving of USC’s athletic programs as you are.
You also need to change your BONG water LOL
Still laughing, wow did you actually witness OJ if you did why didn’t you come forward remember it’s an opinion and everyone has one.
Paul D. Kelley
by so.cal.native1952 on Jun 15, 2009 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Jealous Little Brother
Having a hypercritical attitude is a sign of an inferiority complex, Chi-town. http://www.stopdepressiontoday.com/stop-your-inferiority-complex-now.html
You and your weak sisters at bruinsnation have done a magnificent job of memorializing a few transgressions of 18, 19, and 20 year old men. Yet, you have failed to prove to anyone other than yourselves that USC runs a “despicable and unworthy” program. USC football has had a period of unprecedented success. USC has faced no NCAA sanctions in football under PC’s tenure. Your soapbox is supported by a foundation of envy and inferiority.
1) USC practices are open to the public. Even you can attend to learn how to play real football.
2) Your premise is laughable. Do you not believe that an 18 year old kid who makes a mistake deserves a second change if he meets the austere requirements to qualify for said 2nd chance? In America, this his how we operate. UCLA has offered more 2nd chances than USC, so regardless of your answer, your institution does believe in 2nd chances.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2419713
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3978996
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2256187
3) It was not an interview, and Carroll did not know he was on camera. It was in the heat of the game. Yes, there is cussing in football. Some of us think it’s cool.
4) Prove that USC turned a blind eye. We have interviewed over 50 witnesses in our vigorous internal investigation on Mayo and Bush. Do you propose that we spy on our athletes and their families 24/7 off-campus in violation of their constitutional rights to privacy?
5) Joe McKnight said that he misspoke. Do you admit that John Wooden had illicit contact with Bruin recruit, Kevin Love. http://www.yardbarker.com/college_basketball/articles/John_Wooden_recruiting_violation_at_UCLA/72693
Your argument that Frostee Rucker sends a “message to the student-athletes is that it is okay to behave like this” is a fallacy of inductive generalization. Frostee Rucker is one kid to whom Carroll gave a 2nd chance. 99% of USC’s football players are upstanding scholarly gentlemen who have never had a run-in with the law. To insinuate that Frostee Rucker represents the typical Trojan football player is a fallacious hasty generalization. Because one Bruin football pass is completed does not mean that all Bruin football passes will be completed.
I offer that a despicable program is one with a provable trend of lawlessness or cheating. See Florida’s 24 players arrested over the last 4 years. http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/11820284/rss
Or, a program who hires coaches with a history of lawlessness and cheating. See UCLA.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2002/oct/11/columnist-steve-guiremand-ncaa-lets-slick-rick-sli/
http://www.ocregister.com/sports/scott-crenshaw-ucla-1786999-coach-eric
Your comment that “Floyd probably figured that if Carroll got away with cheating and lying for several years while the university turned a blind eye, then he needed to employ the same shady methods to get to the top” is so inane that it requires no counter. The NCAA has filed no sanctions against USC despite years old allegations from felons. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Chi-town, you should spend more time worrying about your own team and less time clawing at the pedestal of champions.
Let's see, Why am I jealous of USC?
Dear DFWTrojan,
You just might be right. You are always claiming that UCLA students and alums are jealous and envious of USC. So it got me thinking. Maybe we are jealous of USC. It’s a great institution. Lot’s of ranked programs, etc. But I’m not sure.
Let’s see, specifically what is it about USC that I could be jealous of?
Possibly, I’m jealous because I’m not part of the "Trojan Family." Nope, that’s not it. I’m Greek-American. I have a big fat Greek family. I don’t need any more family.
Maybe it’s because USC is located on 492 beautiful rolling acres in the nicest part of LA, surrounded by gorgeous neighborhoods and a vibrant social/entertainment district that is just a few miles from the ocean. Ahhhh, nope. That would be UCLA.
Perhaps, it is because USC’s most famous sports legend is that paragon of virtue and champion for civil rights – O.J. Simpson. And UCLA has only Jackie Robinson, Arthur Ashe, John Wooden, and Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Maybe not.
I got it. I’m jealous because USC has more Nobel laureates than UCLA. Oops, UCLA has 10 and USC only has one. Sorry.
Fields Medal winners? UCLA one, USC zero. Nope.
National Medal of Science winners? UCLA 10, USC two. Nah.
Rhodes Scholars? UCLA 11, USC 9. Close, but still no.
Okay. Maybe, I am jealous because of USC’s international prestige. Let’s see, in the Academic Ranking of World Universities ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Ranking_of_World_Universities ), UCLA is rated 13th and USC is at 50th. And in the Times Higher Education of London ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Times_Higher_Education_Supplement ), UCLA is ranked 30th and USC is ranked 119th. I guess that’s not it.
Hummmm. I got it. I’m jealous of USC because of their highly ranked professional schools and academic programs. Let’s take a look at the U.S. News and World Report rankings of programs.
Medical school (UCLA 11th, USC 39th). Nope.
Law school (UCLA 15th, USC 18th). Nope
MBA program (UCLA 14th, USC 20th). Nope
Education (UCLA 5th, USC 22nd). No way.
Mathematics (UCLA 12th, USC 59th). Maybe this explains why you can’t do the math.
Computer Science (UCLA 13th, USC 20th). No.
Psychology (UCLA 3rd, USC 40th). I don’t think so.
Biological Sciences (UCLA 22nd, USC 89th). Nope.
Political Science (UCLA 11th, USC not ranked). Ouch.
Economics (UCLA 14th, USC 50th). No.
Engineering (USC 7th, UCLA 14th). Yes. Yes!
This is it. Eureka. I have found why I am so jealous of USC. You have a better engineering program than UCLA.
Wait a second. Hold the phone. Didn’t USC give false information regarding this ranking (http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/06/08/usc )? Sorry, we’ll have to cross this one off the list.
Well, DFW. There you have it. I just can’t find a reason why I’m jealous of USC. I really tried.
Perhaps, you will have to reconsider your jealousy accusations.
Perhaps, you should stop projecting (that’s a psychological term – did you take psychology?) your own attributes on others.
Perhaps, you and the rest of your friends a Conquest Chronicles should take a long, hard look in the mirror and ask yourselves how you and your school’s administration allowed a pathological cheater with narcissistic personality disorder take over your football program and destroy your entire university’s reputation.
I remember when McKay and Robinson regularly kicked UCLA’s butt. They didn’t lie or cheat. They didn’t yell "f**k you" at opposing coaches. They didn’t run up scores for rankings or for their egos. They were great coaches who brought dignity and prestige to USC.
NOTE TO WOLVERVINES – SORRY TO CARRY THIS DISCUSSION ON YOUR WEBSITE. FYI, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN KICKS BOTH UCLA’S AND USC’S BUTT IN A LOT OF THE CATEGORIES NOTED ABOVE.
NOTE TO DFWTROJAN – I WOULD BE HAPPY TO CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION ON BRUINS NATION OR CONQUEST CHRONICLES.
Carroll will erase all that.
I will say one name JERRY BUSS
He actually employed some of your Bruins, and probably more we don’t even know about.
John Wayne
Tom Selleck
Randy Johnson
Wil Ferrell
etc.
Paul D. Kelley
by so.cal.native1952 on Jun 18, 2009 1:19 AM CDT up reply actions
This is both a sad and welcome commentary
Because, friends at Maize and Brew- as well as those brothers of mine at Conquest Chronicles- I think we’ve defended the post that Dave has put up plenty here and well enough for any neutral observer to apprise the validity of Dave’s points. If the honest goal of the Bruins who’ve commented in this thread were to discuss the merits of Dave’s post and stories that have come out regarding Johnson’s allegations against the USC basketball program- in specific- Coach Floyd’s recent resignation, we’d happily continue. But it seems their only goal is to prove (through Bruin bias) that they’re right about “USC’s historically cheating history” and “Coach Carroll’s obvious dirty program”- which – we can all surmise- is, on the surface, patently weak. Frankly, I’m not really and our good friends here at Maize N Brew aren’t interested in having that discussion.
The reason why this is so sad, is that it proves Bruin weakness in debate as well as their propensity to spew vehement vitriol and conjecture.
The reason why this is welcome, is because it just goes to show people on a nationally recognized and neutral website/blog what we Trojans have to deal with ad nauseum with the Bruin faithful.
End of story.
Comer4tide to Nico2.0: "How come I've never heard of any of your random songs?"
Todd to Comer: "Because if you had, he wouldn't listen to it. BOOM. Roasted."
Nico to Todd: "Shouldn't you be off voguing somewhere?"
Whine on the Huron River
Chi-Bru, I too could carefully select a # of statistics that show USC’s superiority over UCLA using your same rifle shot approach. However, I’ll share the two most relevant with you in the context of this site. Current and convincing:
- Dec 6, Men’s Football, USC 28 – UCLA 7
- Mar 13, Men’s Basketball, USC 65 – UCLA 55, semifinals Pac-Life Tourney
The fact that your whine of inferiority can be virtually heard all the way from Westwood to the Huron River in beautiful Ann Arbor says everything. I’ll leave you with this:
Response.
Paragon,
I would be very happy to continue this discussion on Conquest Chronicles. Please open a thread on CC and I will respond.
Thanks,
Chicago Bruin
Or, ask Nestor to Open One....
on BN. Or, let’s just have a CC vs BN street brawl in the LA river basin old school-style, a la Ron Burgundy. ALL weapons allowed. I’ll bring the medieval battle mace.
Dave, I reiterate how much we enjoy your blog. I am a bit surprised that we didn’t receive any taunts for our childish, rivalry-induced antics from the Maize n Blue? I guess the Wolverines are too polished for our sophomoric behavior.
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