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A Picture Story... Donovan Warren's Game Sealing Pick

Few caveats... These are taken with my cell phone, so yeah, quality.  Secondly, the two angles shown on TV were the endzone and the Michigan sideline... we'll go through the endzone angle first and then sideline after the jump.  Thirdly, I am going to look for commentary in the comments, these are just what I saw that made me say they wouldn't overturn the call on the field at the time in the game thread...

First set of images are the end zone angle:  Despite having inside position, the IU receiver clearly DOES NOT have the football to begin with...  Warren does:

Endzone_1_medium

As the two guys start going to the ground, well you tell me....

Endzone_2_medium

Knee down on next frame...

Endzone_3_medium

Clearly Warren has the football at the end of all of this...  

Endzone_4_medium

Endzone_5_medium

Star-divide

Ok, sideline shots... which are as inconclusive as inconclusive can be....

Sideline_1_medium

Sideline_2_medium

Who has the football here?

Sideline_3_medium

Or here?

That angle is worthless, the end zone angle is certainly more revealing if you ask me...

0 recs  |  Comment 112 comments |

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Great work SCM

The first pic has convinced me!

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 26, 2009 3:45 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Bullshit

They share posession when the knee is down, which is what showed on the video. It was clear as fucking day. It’s not clear in your pictures.

Enjoy your victory, hope RichRod had enough money left over after paying the refs to pay his attorneys. I will relish watching the Buckeyes beat on your asses in November.

by LoneStarHoosier on Sep 26, 2009 3:46 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Easy there champ...

Cheese to go with that? You show me where possession is shared when the knee is down, show me the angle that shows it.

GO BLUE! http://www.maizenbrew.com/

by SCM on Sep 26, 2009 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It shows on the video. Everybody in the country saw it and agrees.

It’s like ’67 all over again.

It’s the rules: they shared possession when the knee was down, and it clearly showed it. Believe whatever you want I guess. You got your fucking W.

by LoneStarHoosier on Sep 26, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Go walk around the block bud.

You show me where they shared possession, there’s not an angle on any replay that shows it, not one.

GO BLUE! http://www.maizenbrew.com/

by SCM on Sep 26, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am not sure if the original call was right, it is very close, but for sure there is not to overturn this on the replay.

by Sliup on Sep 26, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

And that’s the ENTIRE point.

GO BLUE! http://www.maizenbrew.com/

by SCM on Sep 26, 2009 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shouldn't the ENTIRE point

be getting the call right regardless of the original judgment?

BSD

by Kevin HD on Sep 28, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah right...

Like I am going to enjoy that..

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 26, 2009 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just so you know..

I told SCM I would pay him $20 if the call stood. I clearly thought IU would get posession… But the views were kind of inconclusive.

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 26, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bad call but not why IU lost...

The call that actually should’ve been made was pass interference…..no doubt there. And thru your own pics, it clearly shows Warren arriving and making contact with our WR before the ball arrives, which by RULE is pass interference…..correct? And really, the pics you have are not as good as the ones ESPN was able to provide. Something tells me they (ESPN) have better technology than an AT&T cell phone. Congrats on the win, UM was fortunate .

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 1:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not pass interference

The defender has just as much right to the ball as the reciever and Warren was clearly going for the ball

by AlanCK on Sep 27, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, pass interference.....

Yes, the defender has the right to the ball, as long as he doesn’t go THRU the receiver first. Once the ball is in flight and not tipped, the defender CANNOT make contact with the receiver. Look @ SCM’s still pics, it shows Warren arriving and making contact well before the ball arrives….If your gonna live by the pic on the possession call, then you cannot dispute the pass interference as well. It doesn’t matter, games over and officials are back home in Ann Arbor……good luck the rest of the BT season.

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not Pass interference.. According to the NCAA at least ..read #2

c. Defensive pass interference is contact beyond the neutral zone by a Team B
player whose intent to impede an eligible opponent is obvious and it could
prevent the opponent the opportunity of receiving a catchable forward
pass. When in question, a legal forward pass is catchable. Defensive pass
interference occurs only after a legal forward pass is thrown. It is not
defensive pass interference (A.R. 7-3-8-I, IV, V, IX-XI, XIV and XV):
1. When, after the snap, opposing players immediately charge and establish
contact with opponents at a point that is within one yard beyond the
neutral zone.
2. When two or more eligible players are making a simultaneous and bona
fide attempt to reach, catch or bat the pass. Eligible players of either
team have equal rights to the ball (A.R. 7-3-8-XII).
3. When a Team B player legally contacts an opponent before the pass is
thrown (A.R. 7-3-8-XIII).
4. When a Team A potential kicker, from scrimmage kick formation,
simulates a scrimmage kick by throwing the ball high and deep, and
contact by a Team B player occurs.

by Lostincali on Sep 27, 2009 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm.....interesting

That word in #2, what is that…..simultaneous? But I thought the argument was there never was a simultaneous event…right? But anyway, look at the pics by SCM…it clearly shows Warren arriving and making contact with belcher well before the ball arrives…..that is pass interference. You can make contact with a receiver up to 5 yards until the ball is in flight. Once the pass is away cleanly, you cannot make contact(run thru a receiver) BEFORE the ball arrives……unless it is simultaneously. Correct? Agree?

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

it says

Simultaneous attempt, not simultaneous control.. obviously on any play like the one in question the action of both the defender and receiver are going to be simultaneous, but that does not mean that they both touch the ball at the same time. Your logic is fuzzy.

by Lostincali on Sep 27, 2009 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Simultaneous attempt.....

The bottom line is this…..You, as a defender, cannot make contact in a manner that enables a receiver from attempting to make a catch BEFORE the ball arrives…it’s that simple. Nothing fuzzy about that. If, while the ball is in flight, a defender cannot grab, bump or impede the intended receiver in any way. If you run a route across the middle and while the ball is in flight, can the the defensive player knock down the receiver? No……he cannot. It is all mute anyhow. Unfortunate that a great game was over shadowed by a contrevorsial call.

by IUKrice72 on Sep 28, 2009 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Simultaneous attempt.....

The bottom line is this…..You, as a defender, cannot make contact in a manner that enables a receiver from attempting to make a catch BEFORE the ball arrives…it’s that simple. Nothing fuzzy about that. If, while the ball is in flight, a defender cannot grab, bump or impede the intended receiver in any way. If you run a route across the middle and while the ball is in flight, can the the defensive player knock down the receiver? No……he cannot. It is all mute anyhow. Unfortunate that a great game was over shadowed by a contrevorsial call.

by IUKrice72 on Sep 28, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

actually,

it quite clearly says
It is not defensive pass interference (A.R. 7-3-8-I, IV, V, IX-XI, XIV and XV):
2. When two or more eligible players are making a simultaneous and bona
fide attempt to reach, catch or bat the pass. Eligible players of either
team have equal rights to the ball (A.R. 7-3-8-XII).

So by the rule as written in the NCAA rule book, contact is legal as long it is not made to impede but to go after the ball.. he was going after the ball, thus its not pass interference.

by Lostincali on Sep 28, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lostin cali, thru your impressive research you have.....

Only proven my point for me. If, the play is simultaneous…rec, def and ball ARRIVING at the same spot, then no, there is no flag. But, once a receiver has established himself, and is waiting for the ball(in flight) the DB CANNOT make cantact with him. If that was the case, it would be damn near impossible to ever complete a pass. You cannot, after 5 yards(which is the “legal” part of the baove statement) make contact with a receiver, incidental or not. Yes, there are times when contact is made after that and as an official you have to determine if the defense gained an advatage thru that contact. If so. you throw the hanky, if not…play on. It is that simple. Under no circumstances, besides simultaneous arrival of all three scenarios(ball, def, rec) can the DB make contact with the intended rec BEFORE the BALL arrives…..ok?

by IUKrice72 on Sep 29, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

“once a receiver has established himself, and is waiting for the ball(in flight)”

Yeah. That didn’t happen. Belcher was still moving when the ball arrived. When the ball is thrown, Belcher is running an in route slightly towards the line of scrimmage and Warren breaks on this route.

As the ball is in flight, Belcher make adjustments to the spot of the ball. Belcher cuts off his left foot to turn upfield, at the same time leaning to initiate contact. Read that again: Belcher initiates contact.

by nicholus.h on Sep 30, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Once the ball is in flight and not tipped, the defender CANNOT make contact with the receiver

There would be 30 PI calls every game if that were the case.

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 27, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They may of both had their hands on the ball when his knee was down, clearly Warren was the one that had possession.

Really? So, lets same for the cause, A receiver for Um runs a post. As he is running his route and the QB releases the ball to him and said DB knocks him to the ground….thats nothing? Correct? Officials let kids play…..thats why it is not called every dow or as you suggested, 30x’s a game. Honestly you could call holding every play, offensive/defensive. But as a former HS/College official, there is a line you follow on what to allow and what to call. Basically if one garners an advantage over the other, a flag/whistle is blown. Ok?

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You don't really believe

this stuff you’re writing, do you?

Seriously, do you not see a difference between incidental contact when players are making a simultaneous ATTEMPT to catch a ball and in your example of a DB knocking a WR down before the ball gets there? Really?

Yay, sports.

by MDC on Sep 28, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess I am writing to fast for you...I will try

And slow down. My point is this, read slowly and look @ SCM’s pics. Warren is making contact, basically “running thru” belcher BEFORE the ball has arrived. I agree, if the receiver, defender and ball arrived @ the same time, then there is no pass interference. As an official, I can assure you this will be called 99% of the time. Every year in our annual meetings, we have whats called, “points of emphasis’”. And this was one of them. A defender, BEFORE the ball arrives, cannot impede the receivers ability to make a catch. Doesn’t matter in its incidental or not. And yes, I reaaly believe what I am writing. The example I used is no difference between being knock down or slightly knocked off stride. Basically it all boils down to the refs judgement and obviously he didn’t feel there was just cause for a flag….

by IUKrice72 on Sep 29, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, these pictures show nothing. For instance, they don’t show Warren just about to beat Belcher to the spot of the ball, when Belcher cuts and leans upfield to actually initiate contact with Warren. Warren “running throough” Belcher is just something you want to be true because you want this call to be bad.

A receiver, BEFORE the ball arrives, similarly cannot impede a defenders ability to make a catch. How do you justify this? Warren is quite obviously in a great position to make a catch, especially if Belcher doesn’t lean into him. So, why aren’t Belcher’s actions pass interference?

by nicholus.h on Sep 30, 2009 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

enjoy losing to OSU yourself.

wait, does Indiana even play them? eh, who cares, it’s Indiana.

by Chrisgocomment on Sep 27, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Enjoy losing to everyone.

by Brodie on Sep 27, 2009 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alright

Enjoy losing the rest of your games.

by MaizeSombrero on Sep 27, 2009 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

stick that instrument up your arse and calm the fuck down you ragged looking band geek. It’s pretty clear Warren had possession. Also, do you really think IU lost just because of THAT play?

by mgoblue01r on Sep 26, 2009 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They deserved to finish the drive without a bullshit call, whether it ended in a three-

and-out or a touchdown.

Why are you so pissed off? You know why I am pissed. What’s your excuse? And what does my appearance have to do with anything?

by LoneStarHoosier on Sep 27, 2009 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Show me the angle...

Where it doesn’t show shared possession…And SCM’s “still” pics from AT&T don’t count. Really, those pics show nothing more than that SCM was @ the game and they were taken by a UM fan…other than that, they’re very in conclusive . Again, that call didn’t cost IU the game, but it wasn’t the right call.

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No I wasn't at the game...

Let another family member go in my spot this Saturday. Obviously those are pictures of the telecast off my DVR… or does the enormous PAUSE menu in several of the shots not convey that?

GO BLUE! http://www.maizenbrew.com/

by SCM on Sep 27, 2009 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ENORMOUS pause menu.....

Actually it was in only 2 of the 6-8 pics and I really didn’t notice it. I wasn’t looking for pause menus, etc…..

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jeez

Show you the angle “where it doesn’t show shared possession”? Um, the call on the field was that it WASN’T shared possession, so the angle that someone (read: you) needs to find is one that does clearly and convincingly show shared possession.

Also, asking someone to prove a negative (i.e. show me where this didn’t happen) is pretty weak. Try again.

Yay, sports.

by MDC on Sep 28, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My point is this...

The ONLY reason the call wasn’t overturned is because the call on field wasn’t dual poassession and the video evidence didn’t show enough to reverse the call. If the call would ahve been dual poss, IU ball and the play reviewed, there wouldn’t have been enough evidence to overturn that either. You have to remember, when a call is made, now there has to be CLEAR evidence that shows otherwise or the call stands. So my point is that exactly…..understand?

by IUKrice72 on Sep 29, 2009 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Umpire standing on the left hash looking directly at Warren and Belcher makes the call. He pretty much has this view:

http://umgoblog.com/post/Close-Up-Pictures-of-Donovan-Warrene28099s-Late-Game-INT.aspx

by nicholus.h on Sep 30, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What the hell is a Hoosier anyway?

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 26, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No need to be derogatory Pinchy

I can understand being mad, but I don’t think there’s absolutely anything that could’ve overturned the call

GO BLUE! http://www.maizenbrew.com/

by SCM on Sep 26, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was asking a serious question

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 26, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wiki regarding "Hoosier"

In St. Louis, Missouri, the word is used in a derogatory fashion in similar context to “hick” or “white trash”.

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 26, 2009 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Get off that horse bub...it's dead...but if you must know

A “Hoosier” is a state school in Indiana that has 5 NCAA titles and hasn’t had ANY FF’s stripped…….I think thats what a Hoosier is. And yes I know IU has been sub-par as of late, but didn’t your might Wolverines go 3-9 last year? Very , very fortunate to win today and you know it. IU was the better team, just didn’t excute very well inside the 20 and that kept UM in the game. If ,and yes I understand the meaning of the word if, IU scores just one TD on 6 different trips to the "red “zone”, UM’s late TD is meaningless. But “ifs” don’t win football games. Congrats on your win.

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 2:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

your tears are delicious.

there isn’t anything lamer than claiming that a coach “paid off the refs”. some dipshit Michigan fan behind me was yelling the same thing during the game after that bogus PI call on Floyd. The calls go both ways.

by Chrisgocomment on Sep 27, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bogus? Really?

Floyd was holding belchers jersey for almost 10 yards down the field…..Pass interference, probably not, defensive holding easy. Again, the calls are made and their is nothing one can do. I have officiating basketball and umpired baseball for 17 years. One thing I always tell a coach is this….“Do you think by showing me up, screaming and yelling that I am suddenly gonna change my call”? Not likely. So we can discuss this from now till next years meeting and guess what? It is still gonna be an INT, UM’s ball and IU still loses. Good luck rest of the BT. I will tell you this…If UMdoesn’t address their needs on the DL, you guys are in for a long BT season.

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i will tell you this: Indiana is also in for a long BT season because they’re Indiana.

by Chrisgocomment on Sep 27, 2009 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i will tell you this: Indiana is also in for a long BT season because they're Indiana

Really? So if thats the case, whats that saying about Mich? I think UM is very talented and gifted offensively…..I was just making a statement based on an observation. Simple if stinking ol’ IU can runt he ball down your throat, what do you think PSU and OSU are gonna do? Hell Anybody for what its worth. I know our FB program subpar, thats no secret. But where is UM’s? Kinda like IU’s BBAll program….once proud but now broken. I wasn’t bashing UM at all and you turned a simple comment into a mess…lol.

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Michigan went 3-9 last year.

by Chrisgocomment on Sep 27, 2009 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

PIs against michigan too

There were at least 2 PIs that weren’t called for Michigan earlier in the game,
and there were several that werent called for us the past few weeks.

So this crap about us paying refs, and that one play being the entire game is garbage.

There was a lot that Indiana could have done to win the game…yet when IU got big opportunities come up time and time again, IU folded over

by michigan2000 on Sep 28, 2009 1:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Penalties....

I am sure if we all watch the UM/IU game or any game for that matter, in slow motion, there would be plenty of penalties that were not called. As a former coach and currently an official, I truly believe that NO call, made or not made, ever beats you. IU squander many, many opportunities to win this game. When a call is made or not made, everyone screams"foul"….But what is lost in all of this are the squandered opportunities IU let slip thru their hands. In all my years as an official/umpire/coach, I have yet to miss a free throw, fumble a FB or drop a pop up….missed opportunities beat you…..not an officials (no) call. Good luck the rest of the BT season.

by IUKrice72 on Sep 28, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also confirms that

Toronto was at bat in the bottom of the 7th against some team.

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 26, 2009 3:50 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

By the way...

Bill Lynch throwing his gum, in retrospect, was the single greatest display of anger I’ve seen in quite some time.

GO BLUE! http://www.maizenbrew.com/

by SCM on Sep 26, 2009 4:00 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Haha.. I like that dude..

Reminds me of me.

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 26, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Saved his job?

I think he is doing a GREAT job there…

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 26, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure if you're being sarcastic...

But last year we were 3-9 and blown out in about every game. It’s a make-or-break year for him, and so far he is making it.

I’ve calmed down a little, and I love how this team is improving every week. I hope they can take their rage (and trust me, every IU player, coach, fan, and student is fucking furious) and beat the snot out of Ohio State. If the refs will let us, that is.

by LoneStarHoosier on Sep 26, 2009 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not sarcastic at all

I was impressed with them today. If you beat OSU I will be ecstatic!

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 26, 2009 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh believe me, so will I.

I will run naked through the streets.

by LoneStarHoosier on Sep 26, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Polk=Beast

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 26, 2009 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

IU played a hell of a footballl game...

I’ll be honest and say I had no thoughts of the game being this close, let alone them coming out and flat smacking Michigan in the mouth like that.

GO BLUE! http://www.maizenbrew.com/

by SCM on Sep 26, 2009 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Looked like he was channeling Bob Knight.

I was very impressed. If that was me I might have started throwing my assistants around in a fit of anger.

by Lionsrmycrack on Sep 26, 2009 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lynchs gum throwing tirade, lol....

If thats the greatest display of anger you have seen in “quite sometime”, the you obviously didn’t spend much time around MICH FB last year….I am quite sure Richy thru more than just gum last year.

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was the gum that made it great...

If he would have throw the headset/clipboard/chair it would have been ordinary and would not have even been mentioned by anyone.

Does that clear things up for you?

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 27, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just to add my 2 cents

I don’t have TIVo or a DVR so all I saw was the review as it was being aired on my little television, from what I saw I thought that it would be overturned. Looking at the pictures you have posted, I think the right call was made. That being said, even if Indiana does get the ball back, it doesn’t guarantee a score. Is it probable? Yeah, I’d say maybe even likely, but who’s to say on the next play it isn’t fumbled and Michigan recovers. I think more of the Indiana losing can be blamed on them not being able to punch it in when they got into or near the red zone.. how many times? I’m not trying to slight the Hoosiers at all, but you don’t win on could’ves.

by Lostincali on Sep 26, 2009 4:04 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You're right.

The other thing I brought up in the game thread was that it wasn’t like this was a TD or turnover type of call, it was first down on their own 30.

GO BLUE! http://www.maizenbrew.com/

by SCM on Sep 26, 2009 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What? You are serious? Not a turnover type of call?

Exactly what do you call an interception? By losing the ball, IU lost their ability to win…..it was a HUGE call. Didn’t cost IU the game, just the opportunity to win. No biggie….not like it was a “turnover” type of call, eh,,,,,,,right?

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sigh...

I was simply stating the decision was not “Touchdown vs Turnover”….

GO BLUE! http://www.maizenbrew.com/

by SCM on Sep 27, 2009 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

When it's a dual possession, the passing team gets the ball.

When it’s a dual possession, the passing team gets the ball.
When it’s a dual possession, the passing team gets the ball.
When it’s a dual possession, the passing team gets the ball.

This is what is dancing in the head of IU players and fans right now. It’s just the rules. Yes, I know it doesn’t matter at this point.

Yeah, they need to improve in the red zone. I don’t know whether to chalk it up to UM’s defense or our ineptitude. I hope they fix this shit for Ohio State.

by LoneStarHoosier on Sep 26, 2009 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You say

“When it’s a dual possession, …”

Problem is, it was never a dual possession, at least not in SCM’s photos or any of the replays on my HD television. Clearly Warren has it at first — it went right through the IU player’s hands and into Warren’s. So the dual-possession argument ends right there. No way the replay booth can overturn the call on the field, most likely because the call on the field was correct — Warren had the ball the whole time. The IU player was trying to take it away from him. The ref is right there with an unobstructed view from the other hashmark.

You’re dreaming if you think the ref on the field with a clear view of the play doesn’t know the rule.

by Rasmus on Sep 26, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How is SCM's pictures so conclusive?

Really? I just don’t see how you can come tho that conclusion through those AT&T video phone pics. For one…it’s still pics…..you can crop that how you want it to look, easily. IT IS NOT showing frame by frame. It does show, if you take the cover off your eyes, Warren arriving well before the ball does, which by RULE is pass int…right? Commentators are not always right, but I don’t recall one who back your claim to innocence on this particular play. Didn’t cost IU the game, but def cost us the OPPORTUNITY to win. Congrats on the win.

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 2:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

On pass interference, obviously

I can’t really argue. Only to say that bad non-calls like that happen all the time and go both ways throughout the game. Who’s to say I can’t find plenty of equally obvious examples of the IU offensive line getting away with blatant holding, and so on?

I just think it’s crazy that LoneStarHoosier is absolutely certain that there was dual possession when there is no visual evidence for it whatsoever. There are two pieces of evidence that there was not:

1. The ref is right there looking straight at the play from the perfect angle to see the whole thing. For me this is the strongest indicator.

2. SCM’s first frame, which shows the ball beyond the IU player’s arms (sorry I’m too lazy to go find his name — no disrespect intended), much less hands, and in Warren’s arms.

At that point the “dual possession” argument ends. Even if they both have their hands on the ball when they hit the ground, the rule cited by the ESPN guy no longer applies.

by Rasmus on Sep 27, 2009 7:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rasmus, I agree...to an extent....

By definition of possession, sole possession….Warren woul;d’ve had to have the ball all to his self…..which is not the case. There are good, clear arguments for both cases. In retrospect, that call DID not coast IU the game(our inability to put 7 on the board instead of 3 led to that.) The reason this call is getting so much attention is because of when it occured. If this was a play made early in the game, etc…we wouldn’t even be discussing it. And by discussing it, to me it takes away from what both teams accomplished Sat. That was the best I have seen IU play since the Thompson era and I am extremely proud of how we competed!! Good luck to you guys and see ya Jan………

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, here's hoping IU

proves to be a really good team and has a great season. One thing is certain — they came into Ann Arbor ready to play, with a solid game plan.

by Rasmus on Sep 28, 2009 12:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I watched the replays. Again and again.

I know what I saw, and I saw that they both had possesion from the catch to the knee going down.

No grainy cell phone pics are going to convince me otherwise.

by LoneStarHoosier on Sep 27, 2009 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Problem is, it was never a dual possession, at least not in SCM’s photos or any of the replays on my HD television. .

There you have it Um and IU fans, the most un-biased agrument yet…..lol. Maybe, and I am going out a limb here, SCM’s pic’s are a lil’ one sided, to say the least. HD? what in the name of RMK does that have to do with it? You really are proud of having HD….like the rest of america….seesh. Did you here the commentators? They were very clear on what they saw……and something tells me the had HD t.v. as well. Wait a minute, they were there…C’mon.

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually,

if I remember correctly, the commentator pretty much said he couldn’t see it in the replays. He just said he thought it was dual possession. He didn’t actually say the replays confirmed that. He couldn’t, because they don’t, despite what LoneStar thinks he sees.

No thanks to you for being such a jerk about my minor point about having an HD television when SCM’s stills didn’t seem to be taken from HD.

I still think the most important thing is the official standing right there. And the one in the replay booth. They could actually talk to one another and discuss the call. We don’t have even a fraction of the information they had when they made the decision. The guy on the field is saying — here’s what I saw and why I called it the way I did. The guy in the booth is saying — can I change that based on what I see. The answer was NO. Get over it. They did their best and you have no evidence for insisting they didn’t get it right.

If we want to be reasonable, then the most likely thing the official on the field saw/ruled was that NEITHER player had control of the ball — it was bouncing around amongst their arms and Warren came up with it in the end. So it’s either an incomplete pass or an interception. But not “dual possession” or whatever it’s called.

by Rasmus on Sep 28, 2009 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, simultaneous possession ONLY applies to kicks. Simultaneous CATCH is the phrase you’re looking for. And clearly, this isn’t a simultaneous catch.

by nicholus.h on Sep 30, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alright SCM

I Facebooked this, MLived it and Tweeted it…

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 26, 2009 4:37 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Come on, don't kid yourselves

I’m just a poor college kid without DVR so I’m not going to whip out a bunch of Zapruder-like frames, but try to step back for a minute and watch the play objectively. They both had the ball when contact was made to the ground by their knees. That means IU bal as far as I know — not saying we were definitely going to score there, but these Big Ten refs need to stop the crap they’re doing.

Not sure what the value is of those pics when both players are on the ground fighting for the ball. At that point, the play is over and none of what happened after that point mattered. Either IU had the ball outright or by joint possession, or the UM layer had it. Either way, the play is dead.

by D.M.J. on Sep 26, 2009 4:52 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Very interesting.

I’d have to say that the first pic shows warren with possession. Every other pic shows them both with their hands on the ball until Warren rips it at the end of them rolling over each other. Does this constitute dual possession or not? This is for wiser minds than mine. The call was made and that’s the end of it. However, based on that first very illuminating pic I must concede to SCM the discussion we had on the game thread. Nice job brother.

by Lionsrmycrack on Sep 26, 2009 6:04 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

my 2 cents

When I watched the replays on TV, it looked to me that Warren caught the ball and the Indiana WR tried to take it away. They may of both had their hands on the ball when his knee was down, clearly Warren was the one that had possession.

by Dagwood30 on Sep 26, 2009 6:36 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

They may of both had their hands on the ball when his knee was down, clearly Warren was the one that had possession.

That has to be one of the most contradictory statements I have ever read. You think they both both had possession, but CLEARLY in your mind Warren was the one who had poss? Hope you are never counted to be a witness in court, sheww…..

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe if you keep complaining

The Big 10 will give IU the win. it’s worth a shot…

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 27, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, maybe if you guys ask nicely,

The NCAA will give your FF banner back…..Act as if you or any UM fan has never bellyached over a controversial call….Heck, its what makes sports, well, sports. You think Seton hall didnt throw a fit over the foul called in the Title game? Or what about when Jay edwards hit a three to beat UM? Nobody from UM whined and bellyached? And by the way…Edwards shot was late…but you got it back Saturday…..Good luck this year.

by IUKrice72 on Sep 27, 2009 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Having 2 hands on the ball does not give you possession. Warren had control of the ball while the Indiana WR tried to wrestle it away. Seriously look at the first pic again, the ball is to the right of the WR’s right arm. How the hell does he have possession? Nobody can catch a ball like that.

by Dagwood30 on Sep 28, 2009 12:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So you’re all completely ruling out the fact that maybe the UM player had it AND THEN there was dual possession before they hit the ground? Just asking…

Also, and no offense, but one or two still pics make nothing conclusive.

by D.M.J. on Sep 26, 2009 8:39 PM CDT via mobile reply actions   0 recs

Also, and no offense, but one or two still pics make nothing conclusive.

That is why the call stood on the field too…

Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying
into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer

by Pinchy The Lobster on Sep 26, 2009 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh? The refs use video, not still pictures of one or two randomly chosen split seconds.

by D.M.J. on Sep 26, 2009 9:02 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

They very first picture is immediately as the ball arrives

The IU guy clearly does not have possession of the football, hence there was no simultaneous catch.

GO BLUE! http://www.maizenbrew.com/

by SCM on Sep 26, 2009 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Warren had it...

Then he had it, no matter how much the IU guy grabs at it.

GO BLUE! http://www.maizenbrew.com/

by SCM on Sep 26, 2009 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Warren had the ball first (and he did), then the onus is on Belcher to take it away. The rules, as far as passing plays go, only mention simultaneous catch, not simultaneous possession. If Warren makes the catch (which he did) and establishes possession, then Belcher must cause a fumble to get the ball back. The rules make no provision about simultaneous possession unless it’s a kick.

by nicholus.h on Sep 30, 2009 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

According to espn

According to espn, dual possession isn’t a reviewable play.

by Dagwood30 on Sep 26, 2009 8:55 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

This proves two things, and neither of it supports your argument

First pic clearly shows both players are in on the ball. You have to look closely to see where the IU player’s right hand is. It is a dual possession. So it proves the refs indeed blew that call.

Another thing it proves is in the first sideline pic, in which the ball is in the air. The defender is clearly in contact with the IU receiver. An easy PI call, blown by the refs.

Look, UM defender who “came up” with “interception” said in the post game press conference that he snagged the ball after they hit the ground. That’s what he said. So fourth and fifth pic that UM fans are posting on every last IU fan forums only supports that if anything, and that does not mean anything since those are the shots taken after the play was over.

by ohmy on Sep 27, 2009 3:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

i think most of the outrage

stems from the fact that in real-time, there is no way that the call on the field should’ve been an interception. obviously once the call on the field was a pick, there was nothing in the replay that was indisputable enough to overturn it.

watch the replay again (in real-time) and tell me how you can call that a pick on the field? i don’t blame Bill Lynch for being upset. it wasn’t the fault of the guys in the replay booth, it was the ref on the field. it was a blown call.

but, IU’s inability to get 7s instead of 3s in the end zone is the reason that they lost. good luck the rest of the year.

Ewing with the step...YES! and the foul!

by Anthony Masons Haircut on Sep 27, 2009 6:09 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

In real time...

In real time, this is the same thing as a fumble.

Who knows what happened at the bottom of the pile? You only see who comes out with the ball, and Warren did so that mainly why we got the ball.

In all honesty, the refs had no idea what was going on, and there wasnt enough evidence to overturn the ruling on the field

by michigan2000 on Sep 28, 2009 1:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My 2 cents

1) Just to confirm, what is the rule if Warren gets the ball, then the IU guy gets his hands on it, then they go down, then Warren comes up with the ball?
 
2) Either way, of course, my opinion is that the replay was not sufficiently incontrovertable on either side. If IU had gotten the field call, it would have stood, and once UM got the field call, letting it stand was the right call on review.

by J Mann on Sep 28, 2009 8:13 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Close call...

The call was way too close to overturn. Calls go both ways, and yes, the timing of the call sucked for IU. However, to say it was absolutely the wrong call is not rational either. The live replays on the television, in slow-mo, and in still pics do not give clear cut evidence for either call. In live action, I thought it was a simultaneous catch. In slow motion, I actually thought it was 50-50 with a slight lean in favor of Michigan (bias included). In the still pics, I believe Warren actually had the ball first. I understand IU fans wanting to play out the rest of the series. However, the ref made the call that he thought he saw from a better angle than any of us had. The “buying off” the refs argument is pure and simple weak sauce and does not even deserve a response.

Good game overall. I do think Michigan has plenty of issues that will result in four to five losses for the year. I believe 8-4 or 7-5 is a realistic goal than 9-3 or 10-2. Hopefully, I’m wrong though. In any event, I am psyched that we are improving as a team overall. Go Blue!

by bluefido on Sep 28, 2009 11:55 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Bad Calls, Good Calls....it comes down to making the play

If they would’ve overturned the call I wouldn’t have been surprised. Them not overturning the call did not surprise me. So often in sports and more so in football, it’s who has the ball. Warren wanted it more. The IU receiver didn’t finish the job. He got out toughed. Which was a little surprising because IU had been taking it to the UM defense all day. But, when a play was needed – Warren showed up, made a nice play on the ball, and wanted it more than the receiver. If the IU player had fought harder for it, the call probably would’ve been different.

Good calls and bad calls happen all over the game. UM had a series end for a ridiculous formation penalty when they completed a pass play on 3rd & 10 in the middle of the field. Though, this was the first half, so who knows how the game would have ended up. I noticed that right after that play is when the UM focus on offense went into the crapper for the next quarter and a half.

Assuming that the interception was a bad call. They would’ve still had to go 70 yards for a TD. Would they have scored a TD or kicked a FG and sent it to overtime. Or would’ve UM stopped them at some time. Nobody will know.

Michigan will have defensive struggles all year, but they can score. So UM fans, expect nail biters all year – but it sure is fun.

Indiana fans have some real players on their team. Yes, UM struggles defensively, but IU has good RBs, QB is pretty decent. They have some fast personell, especially with their wildcat package. And finally, I wish we had their middle LB on our team. He’s a sure tackler with pretty good speed. He made several nice open field tackles against our speedy guys. Finally, the WRs and O-line are big. This team will compete in the BT.

I’ll be rooting for them against OSU – though OSU has the best D in the league. Hopefully, your coach can come up with some new wrinkles like he did against us.

by MarcK on Sep 28, 2009 12:40 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

the 4th frame

shows the Michigan guy trying to wrest away the ball, not vice versa. So you have proven this was a bad call to me. And I was unsure before.

Karl Klug is an animal. Next game we’re going to bring him in a cage. -- Adrian Clayborn

by StoopsMyAss on Sep 28, 2009 2:12 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, the 3rd frame

in the 4th frame he has revealed his succes in taking it away.

Karl Klug is an animal. Next game we’re going to bring him in a cage. -- Adrian Clayborn

by StoopsMyAss on Sep 28, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

but well after the knee is down.

Karl Klug is an animal. Next game we’re going to bring him in a cage. -- Adrian Clayborn

by StoopsMyAss on Sep 28, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

HT to Brian at MGO for that link

Apologies, hit post instead of preview there before including that…

GO BLUE! http://www.maizenbrew.com/

by SCM on Sep 28, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude.

Did you notice one of the comments supporting Donovan’s claims uses your pics as evidence? They posted a link right to your story.

by Lionsrmycrack on Sep 29, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Donovan....

What a surprise…..what did you expect him to say? If the call would have went IU’s way, you think the receiver would’ve said….“ahh, I never had it, but you know the ref missed the call”….don’t think so. It is a mute point to argue, now, then, five seconds after the replay official, etc…But just because Warren says he caught it first doesn’t make it so. Again, what were you expecting him to say?

by IUKrice72 on Sep 29, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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