The Myth of The Great Recruiter: A Look Back At Rich Rodriguez' Recruiting Classes
by Maize n Brew Dave on Feb 23, 2011 11:57 AM CST
in Michigan Football
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PrintOver the last month or so much has been made of the quality, or supposed lack thereof, of Michigan's 2010 recruiting class. On paper, there appears to be good reason. According to the two major recruiting services, Michigan's 2010 class ranks in the upper-middle of the Big Ten and is, at best, a top quarter recruiting class nationally. This does not sit well with Michigan fans who are used to seeing the Maize and Blue in the top ten of national recruiting classes year in, year out.
For all Coach Rodriguez' supposed faults, recruiting was not supposed to be one of them. Looking back a Rich Rodriguez' short tenure at Michigan it appears, on the surface in any event, that he recruited quite well. In spite of the turmoil and the drama the surrounding the program, Rodriguez' classes usually trailed only Ohio State in the Big Ten and ranked in the top 10 nationally. This seemed to justify the assumption that Rodriguez was not just a coach capable of molding talent, but also highly capable of recruiting good talent.
The reality of the last few years has disillusioned us of that notion. Sadly, the talent assembled at Michigan right now is not up to the levels that Michigan fans became accustomed to under the Carr administration. The obvious response to this is "duh," after two straight losing seasons and a 7-6 campaign that got Rodriguez fired. Here's the catch, according to the recruiting services, Rodriguez recruited pretty well.
In spite of three years of subpar play and turmoil, Michigan still reeled in high recruiting class rankings. Even with the coaching transition in 2008, Michigan did fairly well according to the recruiting services. The 2008 class was ranked 6th by Scout and Rivals had Michigan ranked 10th. In 2009 Rodriguez pulled in a 14th ranked class according to Scout and an 8th ranked class by Rivals. His 2010 class was also respectable, coming in at 12th for Scout and 20th for Rivals.
Those numbers, based on recruiting rankings alone, should have Michigan back in the top 25 for on field play. It's not like Michigan doesn't have some outstanding players. Rodriguez' successes speak for themselves. He recruited a phenomenal talent in Denard Robinson, a game breaking receivers in Daryl Stonum and Roy Roundtree, an NFL calibre Left Tackle in Taylor Lewan, a death bringing nose tackle in Mike Martin and a stellar defensive end in Craig Roh.
But, in spite of these successes, Michigan will be digging itself out of a recruiting hole left by Rodriguez' tenure for the next four years. Despite the rankings and despite the individual successes of Rodriguez and his staff, Michigan's recruiting classes were far, far worse than anyone has realized.
In all, Rodriguez had 3 recruiting classes at Michigan that he was the head coach for. After being hired on December 16, 2007, Rodriguez had two months to finalize Michigan's 2008 recruiting class. He then had all of 2009 and 2010 to recruit. If we give Rodriguez credit for these three classes, he was responsible for 75 young men sending in their letters of intent to Michigan. As I mentioned above there have been some wonderful players brought in under Rodriguez' watch. But if were giving credit for his successes, we have to lay blame for his failures.
There's plenty of blame to lay out, too. Out of the 75 students who signed on the dotted line to play for Michigan under Rodriguez, 24% of them are no longer at Michigan or never made it to campus.
It's hard to be too enthused about a coaches recruiting when almost a quarter of that coach's recruits are no longer on campus. Under Rodriguez, 18 committed players have either failed to make it to campus or left after a short time at Michigan. And it's not like the departing players were sitting on the low end of the totem pole in terms of recruiting rankings either. Look for yourself (Rankings from Rivals):
The Rodriguez Washouts
• RB - Sam McGuffie(4*) - Played in 2008, transferred following the season.
• OL - Dann O’Neill (4*) - Redshirted, transferred.
• DB - Brandon Smith(4*) - Redshirted in 2008, Played in 2009, Transferred in 2010.
• LB - Marcus Witherspoon(4*) - DNQ.
• OL - Kurt Wermers (3*) - Redshirted, Failed out.
• ATH/QB - Justin Feagin (3*) - Played his freshman year, but was booted off the team for a failed drug deal.
• LB - Taylor Hill (4*) - Left the program after 2008 fall camp and transferred to Youngstown State.
• DB - Boubacar Cissoko(4*) - Played in 2008 and 2009 before getting booted off the team.
• DB/S - Vladimir Emilien (4*) - Played, transferred at start of 2010 season.
• DE - Anthony LaLota(4*) - Redshirted. Transferred before 2010 season.
• QB - Tate Forcier (4*) - Played, booted off team by Rodriguez, transferred to Miami.
• DB - Justin Turner (4*) - Redshirted, and transferred to West Virginia before 2010.
• DB - Adrian Witty (2*) - DNQ
• DB - Demar Dorsey (4*) - DNQ
• ATH/QB - Cornelius Jones (3*) - DNQ.
• LB - Antonio Kinard (3*) - DNQ.
• LB - Davion Rogers (3*) - DNQ.
• RB - Austin White (3*) - Transferred/effective DNQ
The breakdown goes as follows: 7 offensive players and 11 defensive players. On the offense 3 QBs, 2 OL, and 2 RB. On the defense 4 LB, 6 DB, and 1 DE. In terms of stars, the washouts were 11 four star athletes, 6 three star and 1 two star. In short, during Rodriguez' three year tenure Michigan lost an entire recruiting class. A (washout)recruiting class that would've averaged a 3.56 star rating on Scout and come in 9th in the country in average star rating in 2011 on Scout and 9th on Rivals. In three years Michigan has lost a recruiting class that most schools would kill for. Puts the won-loss record into perspective doesn't it.
What makes the washout list seem even more dire is where these kids placed in their respective recruiting classes. In the 2008 class Cissoko and O'Neil were both Rivals rated recruits, with Witherspoon, Hill and McGuffie all being 5.8 rated recruits. In the 2009 classJustin Turner was the highest rated recruit in Ohio with a 6.0 rating. Then you had Tate at 5.9 and LaLota and Emilien were 5.8's. Finally, the 2010 class'swashouts were mostly three stars (though Scout liked Austin White as a 4*), but Demar Dorsey was a 5.8.
I mean... damn.
Here's the disturbing thing. If you were rated as a 4 star football player or higher, and went to Michigan as one of Rodriguez' recruits, you had an almost 30% chance of washing out (11/38 = 28.9%).
Again.... damn.
This isn't to suggest that washouts and transfers weren't a fact of life before Rodriguez showed up. As has been chronicled at length, Michigan's defense retained only 58.3% of its defensive recruits from 2005-2009 (meaning that only 58.3% reached a fifth year [redshirted]). Since we can't assess Rodriguez' classes until they reach their fourth and fifth years I won't compare current class retention to the fifth year argument posed in the linked Diary. We can, however, look at defensive retention of Rodriguez' recruiting classes prior to reaching a fourth year.
Out of 75 recruits, Rodriguez recruited 31 total defensive players in 2008-2010. Of those players, only 20 made to or are still at Michigan. 11 of Rodriguez' recruits either failed to qualify or have left Michigan for one reason or another. So before we even get to the issue of reaching a fifth year, Michigan is short 35% of the defensive players that signed a letter of intent to play for Michigan between 2008 and 2010.
Rodriguez' strength seems to have been identifying diamonds in the rough. While Denard was a highly rated ATH in both services, both thought he'd be a corner or slot receiver rather than a Heisman candidate QB. Roy Roundtree had committed to Purdue and jumped to Michigan (as it was his best offer). But he's also had a history of recruiting players that do not live up to their potential. Will Campbell, Jeremy Gallon, Fitzgerald Toussaint, Je’Ron Stokes, Quinton Washington, Ricky Barnum, Terrence Robinson, etc... And these are just some of the players he's recruited that have stuck in Ann Arbor (washout's excluded) but never really made an impact despite their pedigree.
I will not discount that there are flaws in this analysis (passage of time, inevitable failure of the services to get it right, potential break out seasons ahead, etc.). Even so, it's readily apparent that Michigan is in a fairly big recruiting hole that started under Carr and worsened under Rodriguez. And it's not going to get better in a single recruiting class. It's going to take a number of large classes to fill the holes left on the defense and the offense in order to bring Michigan back to the depth it is/was used to having.
Now before people lash out and tell me about how it wasn't Rodriguez' fault because of the admissions fiascoes, that Cissoko was Carr's recruit, or any number of reasons why these numbers lie, lie, lie; remember, I'm just looking at the numbers from the services and the resulting players. You can feel free to disagree with me about the potential of the players remaining at Michigan, but the numbers of departing players are concrete.
My point is that in spite of the great rankings, Michigan's recruiting from 2008-2010 was awful. While the Wolverines pulled in some amazing talent that's produced on the field, the final retention from these classes would drop these classes well out of the top 25 and probably into the 40's.
It wasn't too long ago we were looking for reasons for our misfortune. Sadly, we're going to be right back where we started three years ago, and it's going to take a while to dig our way out.
Below are the three classes Rodriguez saw through to national signing day, with player rankings, retention, quality, and contributions included. Special thanks to Ann Arbor dot Com's for Rich Rezler compiling a good deal of the information below.
2010 Recruting Class - 27 LOI
Recruits That Saw The Field (13)
• DB - Cullen Christian (4*) - Platoon starter as a freshman.
• QB - Devin Gardner (4*) - Played in a handful of early games, hopeful Redshirt (medical).
• LB/DB - Marvin Robinson (4*) - Platoon starter at S/LB.
• DB/S - Courtney Avery (3*) - Platoon starter as a freshman.
• DE - Jibreel Black (3*) - Platoon player as a freshman.
• SWR - Drew Dileo (3*) - Limited playing time as a freshman as a return man.
• P - Will Hagerup (3*) - Starter.
• RB - Stephen Hopkins (3*) - Played significant minutes as a freshman.
• WR - Jeremy Jackson (3*) - Played as a freshman mostly of special teams.
• DB/LB - Carvin Johnson (3*) - Platoon starter as a freshman.
• WR - Ricardo Miller (3*) - Played in one game.
• DB - Terrence Talbott (3*) - Platoon starter by end of the year.
• DB/S - Ray Vinopal (2*) - Platoon starter by end of the year.
Recruits Receiving a Redshirt (9)
• DT - Richard Ash (4*) - Redshirted.
• DE - Kenny Wilkins (4*) - Redshirted.
• ATH/LB - Josh Furman (3*) - Redshirted.
• OL - Christian Pace (3*) - Redshirted, potential career ending knee issue.
• DE - Jordan Paskorz (3*) - Redshirted.
• WR - Jerald Robinson (3*) - Redshirted.
• LB - Jake Ryan (3*) - Redshirted.
• DT - Terry Talbott (3*) - Redshirted.
• WR - D.J. Williamson (3*) - Redshirted.
Recruits Failing to Qualify or Transferring (5)
• DB - Demar Dorsey (4*) - DNQ
• ATH/QB - Cornelius Jones (3*) - DNQ.
• LB - Antonio Kinard (3*) - DNQ.
• LB - Davion Rogers (3*) - DNQ.
• RB - Austin White (3*) -Transferred/effective DNQ
2009 Recruiting Class- 24 LOI
Recruits That Saw The Field (8)
• DT - William Campbell (5*) - Plays, but not a starter.
• ATH - Denard Robinson (4*) - Potential Heisman Candidate QB.
• DE - Craig Roh (4*) - Starting DE.
• ATH - Jeremy Gallon (4*) - Fumble prone return specialist/WR
• WR - Je’Ron Stokes (4*) - Back-up wide receiver
• RB - Teric Jones (3*): - Special teams, injuries.
• DB - Mike Jones (3*) - Played on special teams in 2009, broken leg in 2010 (medical redshirt candidate?)
• RB - Vincent Smith (3*) - Platoon starter in 2009, 2010.
Recruits Receiving a Redshirt (9)
• WR/S - Cameron Gordon (4*) - Redshirt, now starting safety.
• OL - Michael Schofield (4*) - Redshirted. Played special teams 2010.
• RB - Fitzgerald Toussaint (4*) - Redshirted, platooned in 2010 when healthy.
• OL - Quinton Washington (4*) - Redshirted, special teams contributor in 2010.
• OL - Taylor Lewan (4*) - Redshirted. Starting LT with NFL potential.
• LB - Isaiah Bell (3*) - Redshirted, did not play in 2010.
• ATH - Thomas Gordon (3*): Redshirted, Platoon duty at DB/LB in 2010.
• LB - Brendin Hawthorne (3*): Redshirted, played special teams in 2010.
• K - Brendan Gibbons (2*) - Redshirted, platoon starter in 2010.
Recruits Failing to Qualify or Transferring (5)
• DB/S - Vladimir Emilien (4*) - Played, transferred at start of 2010 season.
• DE/OL - Anthony LaLota (4*) - Redshirted. Transferred before 2010 season.
• QB - Tate Forcier (4*) - Played, booted off team by Rodriguez, transferred to Miami.
• DB - Justin Turner (4*) - Redshirted, and transferred to West Virginia before 2010.
• DB - Adrian Witty (2*) - DNQ
2008 Recruiting Class - 24 LOI
Recruits That Saw The Field (6)
• DT - Mike Martin (4*) - Played as freshman, arguably Rodriguez' most important recruit after Denard.
• RB - Michael Shaw (4*) - Played as freshman, nominal starter at RB when healthy.
• WR - Darryl Stonum (4*) - Lightning in a bottle since day one. A very fragile bottle.
• SWR - Martavious Odoms (3*) - Day one starter at slot receiver.
• TE - Kevin Koger (4*) - Day one starter at Tight End.
• LB - J.B. Fitzgerald (4*): A three-year platoon player at MLB and WLB.
Recruits Receiving a Redshirt (10)
• OL - Ricky Barnum (4*) - Redshirted, back-up in 2009, 2010.
• LB - Kenny Demens (4*) - Redshirted, played special teams in 2009, finally supplanted Obi Ezeh at MLB in 2010.
• OL - Elliott Mealer (4*) - Redshirted, played special teams in 2009/2010.
• TE - Brandon Moore (4*) - Redshirted, backup tight end in 2009/2010.
• RB - Terrence Robinson (4*) - Redshirted, limited playing time at receiver/returner.
• SWR - Roy Roundtree (4*) - Redshirted, has since become Michigan's leading receiver.
• RB - Michael Cox (3*) - Redshirted, played sparingly in 2009, 2010.
• ATH/DB - J.T. Floyd (3*) - Redshirted, played sparingly in 2009 and started at CB until an ankle/knee injury in 2010.
• OL - Rocko Khoury (3*) - Redshirted, played in 2009 and 2010. Critical backup at Center.
• OL - Patrick Omaneh (2*) - Redshirted, played sparingly in 2009. Now a potential All-Big Ten starter at Guard.
Recruits Failing to Qualify, Failing Out or Transferring (8)
• RB - Sam McGuffie (4*) - Played in 2008, transferred following the season.
• OL - Dann O’Neill (4*) - Redshirted, transferred.
• DB - Brandon Smith (4*) - Redshirted in 2008, Played in 2009, Transferred in 2010.
• LB - Marcus Witherspoon (4*) - DNQ.
• OL - Kurt Wermers (3*) - Redshirted, Failed out.
• ATH/QB - Justin Feagin (3*) - Played his freshman year, but was booted off the team for a failed drug deal.
• LB - Taylor Hill (4*) - Left the program after 2008 fall camp and transferred to Youngstown State.
• DB - Boubacar Cissoko (4*) - Played in 2008 and 2009 before getting booted off the team.
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One small mistake..
Justin Turner qualified, redshirted, and transferred to West Virginia prior to the 2010 season.
Thanks
Fixed.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Feb 23, 2011 2:11 PM CST up reply actions
A couple issues
You are right to point to the disturbing trend of recruits washing out under Rodriguez. While the great number of DNQs are alarming (although JT Turner is not one of these, as he eventually qualified and only transfered out a year later) I think there are some extenuating circumstances with a few recruits that make it so you can’t place the blame fully on Rodriguez. While a transfer might not reflect well on the coach, it is a two way street (unless we are in the SEC). The player is making a decision to leave — be it for good or bad reasons. And even if a player like Emilien or Lalota transfers, it doesn’t really say anything about Rodriguez as a recruiter, just about his ability to keep players happy, and anything short of knowing the personal dynamic between the player and the coaching staff is going to leave us with insufficient information to make a judgment on who is to blame.
One thing I do take issue with is your claim that Rodriguez has recruited a number of highly regarded players who have yet to live up to their hype. Lets look at the names you list:
Will Campbell – This one is perhaps the most legit “bust”, but BWC is still just entering his 3rd year, so he has time to show promise. Most DT recruits are afforded the luxury of a redshirt year to learn technique, and aren’t stuck behind the best player on the defense.
Jeremy Gallon – Another player who is entering his third year, but Gallon was stuck behind two very good SRs in his first two years. Point to your argument for his awful return skills.
Fitzgerald Toussaint – Injuries. Plus he has three years of eligibility left. Lets not rush to judgement on a player who could well become a feature back still.
Je’Ron Stokes – Another young player stuck behind a deep group of upperclassmen. Will probably see an uptick in playing time this year and start next.
Quinton Washington – Couldn’t find playing time at a stacked position on the offensive line. Could still develop into a good or great DT under the new coaches.
Ricky Barnum – Probably starting this year as a RS Jr. About the right time frame for a OL to break into the lineup.
Terrence Robinson – I’ll lean toward bust here, but it doesn’t help TR that he is a man without a country in the new offense.
All the players you list are either A) just becoming upperclassmen who should contribute or B) were buried behind older, better players for the first couple years.
That is the thing about most of Rodriguez’s players; they are just now getting to the age where you can reasonably expect them to contribute. All the kids in the secondary who played bad were forced into a bad situation and can’t be faulted for that, and all the kids who came in to fully stocked position groups have had the luxury to develop normally. There is a lot of young talent on this team that has had to put up with some pretty terrible circumstances.
To say Michigan’s recruiting from 2008-2010 is awful is hyperbole based on overstating the case against Rodriguez as far as attrition, and undervaluing the players that stayed because they didn’t produce prolifically as underclassmen. Will the 2008-2010 classes be remembered as some of the best UM classes ever? No, but they will hardly be the worst. Did Rodriguez bring in too many borderline academic risks? Yes. However, the team is still set up with enough talent to stay competitive in the Big Ten for the next couple years.
Go Blue!
http://www.maizenbrew.com/
Hyperbole to say that the classes aren't as good as they seem?
I’m not so sure. The DNQs are a very big deal in terms of overall recruiting. Why was Rodriguez recruiting kids that didn’t have a prayer of getting into Michigan in the first place? I think the post-secondary grade factory that Dorsey went to is a prime example of the things Rodriguez simply screwed up when he came to Michigan; those things don’t fly here. I’ll also disagree with you on Toussaint and Stokes. With all the injuries at receiver, Stokes should have established himself as at least a potential target in the flats. The fact that Jeremy Jackson was out there instead of Stokes means there’s a lot of work left for Stokes to do. With regard to Toussaint, I think the ability to stay healthy is a critical aspect of being a good running back. While he’s been regarded as a practice field all-star, he has yet to play more than two games in his two years at Michigan due to an amazing ability to get injured seemingly every time he gets out of bed. And Gallon… no… Gallon can safely be labeled an underachiever given the fumbles and constant string of mistakes.
The argument here is that Michigan’s recruiting classes, top to bottom over the last three years, have been underwhelming by any standard. The guys I list as underacheivers have underacheived. The guys I’ve listed as stars have been great. But the point here is that the ratio of useable talent to bust/transfer/DNQ is frighteningly if not criminally high.
If we subtract all the DNQs or the transfers before their first seasons, Michigan’s recruiting over the last three years looks horrific. 6 DNQs in three years is bad enough to affect recruiting, but when you add in the redshirt transfers it gets worse. Michigan actually wasted a scholarship on those players for a year, forewent recruiting their position for a year, and then watched them leave either because they were booted off the team or left for their own reasons.
The fact remains that Michigan is short a quarter of the recruits Rodriguez signed during his tenure. I’ll maintain that calling that awful recruiting is not hyperbole. It’s fact. We’re down 1/4th of Michigan’s recruits before they even reach their fourth year. These weren’t the worst recruiting classes in history. You’re right. But they weren’t as good as people want to believe.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Feb 23, 2011 2:28 PM CST up reply actions
Underwhelming is fine
But I take issue with your use of the term awful. These classes suffered more attrition than most, and you can absolutely use all the DNQ’s as strikes against Rodriguez. However, pointing out that an abnormal number of kids transfered — which I argue isn’t a function of RR’s ability to recruit and is a more tenuous issue of coach/player relations — while a few of the kids who didn’t leave have yet to pan out is just narrowing the lens to focus on all the bad things so you can say awful in good conscience.
The fact is, on you list above I counted ten kids from the last two classes who had started at least a couple games. Ten of the true freshman found their way on to the field this year and seven players of the class of 2009 were regular contributors. Seventeen kids played at a time well before first and second year players should be forced into action. And you know what? A lot of them showed promise.
My issue is that you point to all the negatives and then state unequivocally, “these classes were awful”. They weren’t awful. Were they underwhelming? Yeah. Overrated given hindsight? Sure, once you factor in kids who didn’t qualify and transfers. But the roster is still in better shape than it was when Rodriguez took over the team in 2007.
Go Blue!
http://www.maizenbrew.com/
I see your point
Perhaps "awful" is too strong a term. Awful would imply that there were no bright spots at all, and there have been. But I also don’t think underachieving is the right term either. It’s far too generous given the attrition and lack of player development as a whole. The right term is probably in between bad and underacheiving. And i don’t know what that word would be.
But I’ll stand by the presumption that Rodriguez’ recruiting classes as a whole weren’t very good by Michigan standards. In the last two classes alone there have been eight players that either DNQ or transfered before they saw the field. The other two played and left. That is a huge hit to Michigan’s depth. Though Michigan did recruit some stars in their classes, overall it’s tough to argue these classes have been better than middling at best.
And I also don’t agree that recruiting and a coach’s relationship with his players are separate. I think they’re critically intertwined. Recruiting doesn’t end once a player is inked. You have to develop them as young men and sometimes take different approaches to different athletes to get the most out of them. I include the transfers in the lists because they’re indicative of the larger issue that the players being recruited weren’t good fits for Michigan the University as well as the football team. Again, when you lose 25% of your recruiting class before they even set foot on the field… well… something’s wrong and it’s an indication you (the coach) didn’t do a good job recruiting the right players.
I don’t think it’s fair to say I only point to negatives. I listed Rodriguez’ successes and gave full credit for his bringing in some good players. And to an extent I’ll agree that the offense is much better suited to compete than when Rodriguez took over. But the defense is not. Not even close.
So like I said, it’s a push in terms of whether the position of the team has improved in three years. Rodriguez inheritted a young offense and a veteran defense, but left with a veteran offense and a young defense. While there are more starters back, after three years of the worst defensive play in Michigan history it’s hard to argue that Michigan is better off defensively in 2011 than it was in 2008.
Here’s the question I pose if the term awful is too strong: "what should I call it?" Take away the DNQs and transfers without seeing the field from the 2010 class and the 2009 class, then tell me where these classes should be ranked. Since this is Michigan, wouldn’t it qualify as an awful recruiting class if we’re rated behind MSU? If a head coach turned in a 30th ranked class, how would Michigan fans have reacted? Remember the uproar about how bad the 2011 class was?
I won’t discount the contributions of the kids who played, but I can’t discount the effect of the one’s who left.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Feb 23, 2011 4:44 PM CST up reply actions
Recruiting the Devil
Recruiting has to be the hardest job the coaches do. I don’t envy them a bit. And Hoke loves it? The man’s crazy.
The idea that a coach has more than a couple DNQ’s in his recruiting class is more than a little alarming. He has to know his school’s standards. I don’t know how admission or non-admission is determined, but RR had to have an idea whether a recruit will meet eligibilty. And to continue to recruit student /athletes that are heavy on the athlete, light on the student part shows he did not “get it” in regards to Michigan football. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist or a Michigan Man to understand Michigan football. And RR not being a Michigan Man was not his downfall. It was not learning what it takes to win at Michigan. UM isn’t so different from other schools with high academic standards, and there are things that have to be done in order to get the athletes you want on your squad. You still have to have something between the ears to attend UM. If not, your ears will collapse together and your helmet won’t fit. Most of the DNQs will find somewhere that will take them, bad grades, discipline problems (if any) and all, but they didn’t fit into what UM considers a Student/Athlete. A coach should know that before signing day.
It’s just another way RR was lax in his attitude about Michigan football.
by PreachinTotheChoir on Feb 23, 2011 3:00 PM CST reply actions
Seriously people
He has to know his school’s standards. I don’t know how admission or non-admission is determined, but RR had to have an idea whether a recruit will meet eligibilty.
Are we suggesting that Demar Dorsey was an example of RR not “getting it”?
This is beyond dumb.
It is not difficult to presend a list of highly rated football players that were recruited by gum-chomping, stomping, “Michigan Men!” head coaches: Bo, Mo and Lloyd that did not qualify to enroll at Michigan.
What Rodriguez didn’t get was defense. What he also never got was a squad of upperclassmen.
But hey Brady Hoke will get all of that coming into his first year. So, like, no excuses.
Go Blue!
Please explain Markus
So is that sarcasm? All I heard from so many was excuses for RR, but with Hoke, there can be no excuses? I just want to be clear where you’re coming from. Demar, since you brought him up, should never have been recruited in the 1st place. Recruiting him is what was dumb! There were many things RR didn’t get, not just DEF.
I will say, that Hoke does get it and we will get back to being a solid program. I don’t think Hoke likes excuses to begin with, what a concept!!
by SanDiegoMick on Feb 25, 2011 5:07 PM CST up reply actions
Is there a reason
you still seem to be on some personal vendetta with someone who hasn’t been our coach now for weeks? We get it. You didn’t like him. Christ, man. Playing the “I told you so” card doesn’t exactly “heal the fanbase” does it? It just kind of makes you seem like a lousy “winner” if you want to call yet another nuclear warhead being dropped on our program a win.
The only thing all this now-moot rhetoric has made me change my mind about is your writing, and that being a change for the worse. You’re beating your head against the wall of personal perception and opinion. That wall doesn’t ever really move for anyone without personal experience, and all you’re doing currently is bloodying your own head needlessly. In place of this, perhaps something on the wonderful senior class of the hockey team pulling a thrilling victory from the jaws of defeat the other night, or something about the currently undefeated softball team, or even some more in depth basketball coverage on a bubble NCAA team would be better to rebuild an already fractured fanbase. We don’t need a bigger fracture than is already there, and this is continually picking a very painful scab for most.
I think there is a reason, Jon
You may very well be right about “picking a very painful scab.” And you are absolutely correct in bringing to light the successes of other Wolverine programs. But in defense of MaizeandBrew Dave and myself, I want to say that picking a scab, though painful can have its benefits too. Relieving pressure from underlying infections, etc. That underlying infection is from many critics out there who think RR was treated unfairly and deserved another year to turn around his downhill runaway train. Had RR done what Brandon had hoped, look like a winner in the Gator Bowl, he’d still be our coach. Any notion of “I told you so” is wrong as far as I’m concerned. I was happy when RR was hired. I thought he would give us excitement and flare in our offense. I didn’t think it would be at the price we paid. 2 losing seasons (no bowl games), a less than mediocre winning season, a lousy over all record and a lousier Big 10 record, no special teams, a sieve on defense, and a “high powered” offense that gets shut down by a decent defense before the end of the 1st quarter. I liked Rich Rod, I still do. I think he can still be a good, or even great coach somewhere. I’m just glad he has been replaced. Beating a dead horse? I probably am. But as long as there are those who insist on preachin’ the praises of RR, and damning Michigan for not facing another year with him, someone has to let the choir know that the “savior” was a false savior.
by PreachinTotheChoir on Feb 23, 2011 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
Vendetta?
Not really. The premise here is that though the rating services liked Rodriguez’ classes, in reality they really weren’t that good. What was unsaid here is that there are a fair number of people who believe had rodriguez stayed Michigan’s recruiting class would have been a top ten type class. What I’m doing here is looking at the numbers and suggesting that maybe part of the reason Michigan’s been so bad the last few years is that our recruiting really wasn’t as good as we’d like to believe. It’s not like we’re playing favorites here on the recruiting aspect, Thunder just rated the offensive recruiting for 2011 a C+.
As for “not liking” Rodriguez, nothing could be further from the truth. I spent three years defending him until I ran out of reasons to do so following the Gator Bowl. I wrote this shortly before he was fired. I really, really like Rodriguez and maintained for years that he was the right guy for the job. Sadly, he proved not to be. Whether I liked him or not doesn’t change the premise of this peice. Whether Rodriguez was still here or not, I think it’s a valid criticism (and certainly one that played in to his firing) that his recruiting wasn’t as good as it should’ve been.
The bottom line is that Michigan fans, myself included, spent three years explaining how the deck was stacked against Rodriguez because of the subpar recruiting that preceded him. That’s the purpose of the links above. What I’m saying here is that Michigan is still in that recruiting hole because the recruiting under Rodriguez didn’t improve our position. As a result, Hoke is inheritting a stiff recruiting challenge that’s going to take a few years to dig Michigan out of.
If the tone is overtly negative, my apologies. This was meant to be a look at where Michigan currently is in terms of it’s recruiting and depth. Sadly, the reality is that after four to five years of subpar recruiting, Michigan is not only a very, very young team, it’s not a very deep team.
And just like I did with Rodriguez, I’m trying to let people know where Michigan actually stands with personnel and why returning to the top may not be as easy or as swift as we’d like.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Feb 23, 2011 3:59 PM CST up reply actions
I'm talking more the general underlying tone of the site
which, when relaying information about football has become mired in what seems a vitriolic rhetoric against someone who really can do no more harm or good for the program. I understand there’s a need for a “state of the union” if you will, but it’s not hard for even the passing fan to figure out what the state of our union currently is. It’s a post civil war apocalypse and we’re all the worse for it. I live in Columbus, and it was brutal enough without the infighting amongst our own.
My point, I guess, is that there are so many really great things happening across the athletic department right now that perhaps the constant reminder of the shambles that our football program has become since the 1997 championship is, at times, too much to bear for an already beleaguered fanbase. At least, I know it is for me and many of the fellow Wolverines I converse with daily.
Hockey, basketball, tennis, softball, gymnastics, baseball, and lacrosse have become a kind of bastion of hope in what is probably the darkest days of UM football since Bump Elliot was coach.
And I know it’s your site and you don’t know me from Dick or Jane Doe, but I’ve been reading this site since its inception and it’s become almost unbearable. We all need a respite of some kind, an oasis, something to draw out our elation to match the unfathomable sadness we’re all feeling, and you have the medium to assist in that.
I’m flat out depressed whenever I think about where we are and what might have been had certain strategic moves panned out in a positive fashion. But there are enough positives out there to be written about that actually are happening as we speak that you’re neglecting in order to dredge up pain, and to me it does a disservice to your readership to cut off your nose to spite your face. There will be a time when everyone is able to look at this period of time in Michigan football with heavy-handed objectivity, but for me that time certainly isn’t a month after the peace agreement was reached.
Point taken Jon
I see where you’re coming from now. Sorry it took me a while. Sometimes we get caught in patterns we’re not aware of until they’re pointed out to us. Since the turnover happened we’ve had so many things to chew on that perhaps we’ve back logged the bad to the exclusion of the good. Bare with us. We’ll get back to having fun again.
Thanks for reminding me that there are other things to discuss.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Feb 23, 2011 4:49 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think you owe anyone an apology Dave
This is my personal opinion, but I take a different view from JonSobel. I understand that there are other great Michigan sports teams (myself being a big fan of the hockey team) but I think everyone knows that Maizen Brew is a primarily football site for a primarily football school.
Therefore, I don’t think you should have to apologize at all for analyzing what has statistically been the worst era in Michigan football in a long time. Why not ask questions such as “What went wrong?” and where could we have gone instead.
Especially with Rich Rod slappy Zach Travis arguing about the semantics of “horrible” vs “underwhelming”, I don’t think we’ve come to a point where people understand what went wrong, and you provided great analysis. You’re right, Rich Rod recruited some great players, but a lot of these great, and I use “great” very loosely, players never made it on the field.
Zach Travis wants to discuss definition of words, you provided analysis. Don’t apologize to anyone.
What would Yzerman do?
I can live with the “Rich Rod slappy” label because, well whatever, I don’t really care. I do spend a good deal of time playing devils advocate when I see things around here that I think are fishy, and maybe sometimes I get a little caught up in my arguments. I’m human, shit happens. However, I think Dave would agree that I’m not just throwing out a bunch of crap against the wall to see what sticks. I spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff, and my opinions come from careful analysis of the circumstances. If I just spouted biased opinions and whined when people attacked RR, I doubt Dave would have asked me to write for MnB.
But let’s not reduce my argument in the comments here to simple semantics. I’m arguing that calling RR’s recruiting haul awful is an overstatement for a number of reasons, and I’m doing it with reasonable analysis of the circumstances that have led to the roster we currently have . Things like the number of productive players that RR’s classes have produced, some of the premature conclusions of supposed “busts” in the last three classes, and the fact that transfers shouldn’t be held as absolute negatives against a coach when we don’t really have any insight as to why a player didn’t stick around for the full four years. I will be the first to admit that the number of DNQs is alarming and absolutely the fault of RR either not understanding the admissions process and/or taking unnecessary chances on borderline guys. The man wasn’t a saint. He made some mistakes, and you won’t find any sane person who would argue otherwise.
In the end it isn’t productive to label RR’s recruiting as awful because it overstates the negatives and overlooks some of the positives that have come out of the last three classes in favor of lambasting RR in some vain attempt to wag a finger at those of us who have questioned the wisdom of the Hoke hire (just my reading of it). If you make an argument (in this class that RR’s classes were “awful”) that I don’t think is justified, I’m going to call bullshit. Dave knows it, and he knows there isn’t anything personal. I never argued the 2008-2010 recruiting haul was great, or even as good as it was initially ranked. If you are truly concerned with finding out “what went wrong” with RR, you have to look at both sides of the coin. I’m just chiming in to make sure we take everything into account before passing judgment.
Go Blue!
http://www.maizenbrew.com/
Seconded
Zach’s exactly right. Like he says, there are two sides to every argument (sometimes more) and I think it’s a disservice to ignore or disparage an opposing view point. That’s been my issue with some of the things that have been written about Hoke and Rodriguez. Zach has a very different point of view than mine and I very much appreciate his thought out perspective. We just disagree on what and how Rodriguez should be creditted for his recruiting efforts. I don’t agree with Zach that he shoudl exclude transfers from the mix and I disagree with him that it’s too early to call certain recruits “busts” (barring a breakout season). But I’m cool that we can disagree about it in a reasonable way and have a constructive conversation about it.
This response isn’t meant to be a scolding of anyone. It’s really meant to say that the opposing view point here is welcome, because only when we actually expose our biases and positions to the light of opposition can we truly understand what they truly look like.
I guess this is a roundabout way of saying thank you to both Huzilla and Zach for both their support and their willingness to put something out there that others would disagree with.
Though I will say that I’d never consider Zach, slappy. I think he’s a pretty good, well reasoned writer. That’s why I’m glad he’s here.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Feb 25, 2011 12:32 PM CST up reply actions
I discussed this with Maize 'n' Brew Dave...
…but I think one of the things people overlook is the deployment of the personnel that Rodriguez recruited. It’s one thing to bring in highly rated recruits. It’s quite another to put them in a position to be successful.
For example, Craig Roh was a highly touted defensive end who’s 6’5" and 251 lbs. Somehow he ended up playing linebacker.
Darryl Stonum was a highly touted wide receiver with good size and blazing speed. He caught fewer than 4 passes a game, and was used sparingly as a returner after being a very, very good return man in 2009.
Will Campbell was brought in as a defensive tackle…then switched to offense after almost two full seasons. He didn’t redshirt, and now two years of his career have been wasted.
All three of these guys were blue chip recruits who Rodriguez was unable to find a role for. Stars and recruiting rankings are awesome, but if your 5-star and 4-star players are playing like 3-stars because you can’t find a way to make them successful, then why do high recruiting rankings matter?
Great points that I should've included
Thanks Magnus.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Feb 23, 2011 4:30 PM CST up reply actions
How do RR's classes rank if
you exclude the kids who failed to qualify academicly?
I'm not sure
I’m not really sure how rival’s or scout come to their numebrs. I do know that if you removed the DNQ’s from the list in 2010, Michigan would have an average star rating of 3.18, good enough to place them in the lower 20’s.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Feb 23, 2011 4:43 PM CST up reply actions
Hey MBD
I’m real surprised this didn’t get more of reaction than it did. Maybe because of the Hoops game last night. Anyway, it is an interesting piece. Do a lot of schools have many DNQ’s hanging around their necks. Or are we and Stanford and a few others the only ones to suffer such fate? For that matter, does Stanford have that trouble?
by PreachinTotheChoir on Feb 24, 2011 4:15 PM CST reply actions
Honestly I'm not sure
DNQ’s are a fact of life for just about every program, especially the lower rund top 40 programs. I think the issue here is that DNQ’s were more of a rarity at Michigan rather than a fact of every class. It’s not like Michigan didn’t take fliers on kids before. They did. Marques Slocum was one of the most obvious examples.
The thing that shocked me was player retention, and how many of our upper level recruits washed out. That 35% of our 4* or higher recruits are no longer in Ann Arbor is just appalling. That kind of washout rate, to me at least, is a fairly good indicator of problems with targeted recruiting.
The issue becomes having DNQ’s in your third recruiting class. Four DNQs, after you’ve been at a place long enough to know the rules and standards, is pretty bad.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Feb 25, 2011 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
Outstanding piece Dave
Thank you, thank you, thank you! Great article my man, I’m an M fan who really appreciates the history of the school and program. RR pissed me the fuck off to no end. I will always hate that fucking asshole! You put into words what had been bugging me from the beginning of his tenure. Don’t forget the great players that left because of him like Boren and Mallett, I know some will say Mallett was gone anyway, but RR didn’t try to convince him at all in my mind, he was too busy trying to recruit Pryor, who was only fucking with us the whole time. Sorry for the french, I’m multi-lingual.
French aside...
Let’s be clear… I really liked Rodriguez and still think he’s a good man. My issue in this piece isn’t with him as a person, it was with the results of his recruiting. I understand that Rich really rubbed some people the wrong way, but in the future please try to avoid dropping f bombs unnecessarily. It’s just not worth it.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Feb 25, 2011 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
French Par Deux
Duly noted Dave, sorry for the bombs, it felt good at the time, it was just so tiring reading all the RR honking for a couple years. I knew by the middle of 2008 season that it wasn’t gonna work.
Keep up the good work buddy.
by SanDiegoMick on Feb 25, 2011 4:54 PM CST up reply actions
Interesting Perspective
I spent the majority of the past 3 years defending RR, in spite of some things I found quite strange. In fact, I was convinced that if we made a bowl game this past year there was no way he’d be fired. I was obviously wrong. That said, I find it very difficult to defend the DNQ’s on the record. As a UM alum, I remember just how challenging it is to get into Michigan and it would seem that the coach should recognize that too. Excusing year one, where one could easily say, ‘Oh, he just didn’t know!’ How do you explain the same problems in subsequent years? Details matter, seems that maybe someone wasn’t paying attention to those pesky admissions details.
The Pot calling the Kettle "Slappy"
This is interesting rea…(Yaawwn)…ding.
One thing is quite clear from all I’ve read on these blogs. People need to gain a little perspective. We’re talking football here. College football. Michigan Football. I know it’s special, very special. I get a stomach ache when we look bad. And withdraw and hide when we lose. For some reason, people say I haven’t been around much the last three years. Hmm, I wonder why? But it is still a game. Opinions are like anuses, everyone has one, but some stink more than others. People should be able to share their opinions here without being called “Slappy”. If you disagree with an opinion, or know why it might be “wrong” or mistaken, you should chime in and tell what you know. And spreading the f___ing f word like salt on an icy driveway is inconsiderate to everyone and shows a certain amount of, shall we say, immaturity. BTW, thanks SDMick for your apologetic words. I use PreachinToTheChoir not because i’m a man of the cloth, becasue I’m not, but because I think of these blogs as people of the same beliefs (Michigan Football) come together and I thought I would end up saying things that everybody else already knew or believed in. You know, “Preachin to the Choir.” Boy did I miss the mark on that one. Most people writing here are UM fans and truly love Michigan Football, but after that, watch the Wolverine fur fly!
Sorry if you’ve read my words before, but I was one who thought RR was going to be a good hire for Michigan. But, as with SD Mick, halfway through season one, I thought it was a mistake. That loss to Toledo just sticks in my craw like acid reflux after too much tacos and tequilla on cinco de mayo. I kept hoping and praying for some sign of life. None was found until RR was fired. I don’t hate RR, there is no place for it here. All hate does is make you miserable keeps him in control of you. You can hate him all you want and he won’t know the difference. It won’t affect him at all.
I would like to hear others think about all this. Do you wish he was still here? Are you sorry he’s gone, but feel it’s for the best? Were you happy he was hired but realized he wasn’t “right” for UM? When did you realize he wasn’t getting it? Did you not like him from day one and found yourself singing “Thank God and Greyhound that you’re gone” just after the first of the year? Did you not like the hire and then get to like him? Maybe this is something for another article.
Go Blue!!
by PreachinTotheChoir on Feb 25, 2011 5:22 PM CST reply actions
Nice post Preachin man
Well written and compelling questions, my hate of RR doesn’t control me, it puts things in perspective for me. I like your takes and am glad we see eye to eye on what happened in 08’.
BTW
To answer some of your questions, I didn’t mind the hire at the time, I thought, hmm, this could be interesting, but as things started unfolding, I started to cringe and it went downhill from there for me.
I’m really, really, really glad he’s gone.
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