If Michigan Wins More Games, Does It Really Matter What Kind Offense They Run?
If you're here, you've probably already read MGoBlog's latest missive on Brady Hoke's and Al Borges' installation of a more traditional pro-style offense at Michigan. Being a true believer in the spread offense, MGo is, shall we say, upset about putting Denard Robinson under center and returning to the "boring" "mustachioed" Michigan offenses of old.
When I first read Brian's piece I didn't agree with it at all. But these days I rarely do. However, I consider Brian's opinions to be representative of segment of the Michigan fan base that truly believes the spread offense was and is the best offense we've ever, or will ever, have. And because these people care deeply about Michigan and Michigan's success, it would be wrong to dismiss their oppinions or to belittle them. I think they have a point, whether I agree with it or not.
As you would imagine with any MGo editorial, there are the usual spate of statistics that butress his point. Not surprisingly, last year's team had the highest yards per carry of any team in the last 10 years. Brian is correct in pointing out that a reason for this is because Michigan possesses the most dangerous offensive player in its history. He is also within the bounds of sound reason in asserting that a pro-style set may not be best way to utilize him.
There is, however a rather large leap of faith that Brian takes in making his point. Yards per carry (YPC). In the context of his argument, YPC equals success. While I'm sure this is an over simplification of his (perhaps) larger point, it is the argument's main support. Ignoring for a moment my personal reservations about the efficacy of the spread Michigan ran the last three years, my biggest qualm is ignoring the results of the seasons he cites. While the ground numbers are truly impressive, the year end results that accompany them are no where near as impressive. Each year Michigan ran the Rodriguez spread ranks highly in yardage for the last 10 years. Sadly, the won loss record is 15-22. (Caveats apply, of course)
However, the old, boring pro-style attack still occupies the remaining 7 spots and is 64-24. In terms of statistics, the obvious conclusion is that Rodriguez spread teams were between half a yard and yard and a half more productive on the ground. The other obvious conclusion is that the extra yards didn't turn into wins, and the old boring teams won a lot more games.
Rank
Year
YPC
W/L
#1
2010
5.58
7-6
#2
2009
4.52
5-7
#3
2006
4.27
11-2
#4
2003
4.25
10-3
#5
2007
3.97
9-4
#6
2008
3.91
3-9
#7
2005
3.89
7-5
#8
2004
3.83
9-3
#9
2002
3.82
10-3
#10
2001
3.59
8-4
But does this really mean anything at all? Not really. Statistics only give you so much information. You would think that if your running game and passing game were unstoppable then you'd win every game, based on numbers alone. I decided to look at Michigan's passing yards over the last ten season to see if there was any correlation between wins and passing. I got the following:
Rank
Year
Yards
YPComp
W/L
#1
2003
3520
12.4
10-3
#2
2010
3252
13.4
7-6
#3
2002
3026
11.7
10-3
#4
2007
2862
12.7
9-4
#5
2004
2795
11.3
9-3
#6
2005
2672
11.2
7-5
#7
2001
2595
12.0
8-4
#8
2006
2538
12.3
11-2
#9
2009
2380
12.6
5-7
#10
2008
1718
10.4
3-9
These are the numbers. Based on this you would think that going to a kick ass passing game would ensure success. Of the top five passing teams of the last ten years, the only team without 9+ wins is the 2010 team. By this rationale, we should focus entirely on passing, hire Mike Leach and buy pirate patches. But that's not how it works. Any football coach worth his salt will tell you he wants a balanced attack so that he can keep the other team off balance, guessing. And that was a pillar of Rodriguez' game plan as well as Borges.
Looking at the numbers, the 2003 and 2006 teams appear to be the most accomplished and balanced teams in recent memory. Why? because they have ten wins and rank in the top ten in both YP carry, yards per completion and most importantly, Wins. In terms of total offense, I will concede the point that on paper the 2010 offense was the most prolific offense anyone has ever counted at Michigan. But in terms of efficacy, I and many others would argue that the offense was not as good overall as its total yardage would indicate.
more after the jump.....
But what did the team actually look like when they played, the so-called "eyeball" test. Was the offense effective when it mattered? Could it dictate the play of a game against talented opposition? I would argue it could not and did not. I've voiced these opinoins in the past and they remain relevant to this discussion. Brian's right, though, if we had a kicking game maybe the results might have been different. As he says:
Getting Michigan's offense to go from explosive but inconsistent to world-destroying is a matter of getting a kicker, finding a good running back, working on Denard's reads and accuracy, and leaving everything else the hell alone.
I don't think "leaving everything else the hell alone" will do it. I would argue that he should include cutting down on dumb penalties (Personal fouls, procedure, lining up correctly, etc.), not turning the ball over, finding more tight ends that can block, and coming up with another running play other than Denard left, right, middle. Adding all these things together, they are not an insubstantial set of hurdles in any way. That's a lot of stuff that has to happen for this to be a world destroying offense. For all the four star tailbacks Michigan's recruited.... yeah, you know the results recently. But arguing over hypotheticals gets us no where. That is my opinion contrasted with his. You may make your own judgments.
Here's the thing, for all the hand wringing over what's happened to the supposed death machine of a offense we "would've" had, I think something's getting lost. That something is that the pro-style offense works. The pro-style offense gave the 1997 team a national championship. The pro style offense gave us three 10+ win seasons since 2001. The pro style offense gave us some of our most revered players like Brady, Hart, Manningham, Braylon, Touchdown Tim, Jake, etc.
It's not like we're trading in a finely tuned Lamborghini for a Model T. I think it's more like we're trading in a Lamborghini for a Vette. Sure the Lambo is faster... when it works, isn't in the shop or having other issues. The Vette is still impressive, explosive, and works consistently when you turn the ignition. On paper the Lambo is mind bending, but in reality you'll never have it out of the shop enough to enjoy it. The Vette may not have the numbers of the Lambo, but it'll still blow your hair back and put a smile on your face. More importantly, it'll work.
In supporting the spread, there seems to be this insistence on selectively applying numbers to butress a biased argument. Baseball may work this way, but football doesn't. The physical and scheme variables in football are too great for numbers to tell the tale of a game. How many times have you seen a game where the numbers in the box score were incredibly close, but the game you watched was not. Think of OSU/Miami this past year. Think of the Wisconsin or Ohio State games. Numbers lie as easily as they tell the truth.
It wasn't too long ago that Beauford broke down Michigan's overall offensive effectiveness month by month, and demonstrated that Michigan's overall numbers for 2010 were skewed by the first four games of the season. And that's where the break down occurs between Rodriguez offense's supporters and people who are more open to the pro-style, Points. The argument that Michigan was a hair away from being awesome is based on Michigan's yards per game. The argument that Michigan was good and not great is based on points per game. And there are numbers are there to support both.
If you look at Michigan's overall scoring compared to yardage, the difference is pretty stark. Michigan's overall scoring offense went from 10th in Aug/Sep, to 48th in Oct, to 38th in Nov, to 67th in Dec/Jan. While you can argue that Michigan shouldn't be charged for not playing a game in December, I think it is arguable that Michigan shouldn't get credit for it's extra overtime points in its basketball-on-grass match up against Illinois. Both of these factors skew the numbers.
So to be fair, let's drop the Dec/January comparison for lack of games. We'll also drop the extra 22 points Michigan scored in OT against Illinois because when you're starting from the 25 everytime your chances of scoring... yeah. What that means is that Michigan scored 45 (Ill), 27 (Purdue - and that's counting the Cameron Gordon fumble return for a touchdown!), 28 (Wisc), and 7 (OSU). That averages out to 26.8ish points per game in November, down from the 32.3 with the OT that Michigan averaged. FWIW, 26.8 ppg drops Michigan to 63rd in the country for the month of November. So, adjusted, Michigan's offense went from 10th, to 48th, to 63rd as the three months of the season went forward. In terms of the offense's ability to produce points, the thing that is required to win ball games, Michigan's output collapsed against better competition.
For comparisons sake, I took a look at San Diego State's offensive numbers over the course of the year. I took a look at total offense, passing offense, rushing offense, and scoring offense, overall and month by month. The numbers are will impress you.
SDSU 2010
Total/O
T/O R
T/Scoring
T/S R
Rush/O
R/O R
Pass/O
P/R
Aug/Sep
509.5
8th
38.3
18th
213.50
25th
296
14th
Oct
387.5
49th
31.5
35th
117.25
92nd
270.3
27th
Nov
449.5
27th
35.3
29th
124.75
86th
324.8
11th
Dec
555
2nd
35
18th
279.0
6th
276.0
23rd
2010 Totals
457 ypg
16th
35 ppg
19th
161.62 ypg
48th
295.4
11th
I'll let you look at Beauford's piece for all the other numbers, but here are the overall tallies for the Wovlerines in 2010:
I really, really don't understand the handwringing here. I think this goes back to the Vette versus Lambo argument. Maybe we're not going to be a top ten offense again, but I'm not going to sneeze at scoring 35 ppg and racking up 457 total yards a game. Michigan's rushing game will obviously take a bit of a hit, but not one that should make you run in front of a bus. On the flip side, Michigan's passing offense should improve quite a bit and take advantage of Denard Robinson's arm strength and Michigan's incredibly talented slate of receivers. FWIW, SDSU's offense put these numbers up in only the second year of Hoke's tenure at SDSU. The result was a better scoring offense and passing offense, and an overall SDSU offense that ranked 16th overall compared 8th for Michigan.
If your response to this is that SDSU played no one, you have a point. To an extent. SDSU put 300 yards and 28 points on the board against TCU (the extra 7 came via fumble recovery). For comparison's sake, Wisconsin put up 385 and 20 points against the Horned Frogs. Transitive properties being what they are, SDSU's offense was pretty good. More importantly, SDSU's offense started out pretty good, and stayed pretty good throughout the season. They were consistent.
Every coach at Michigan since Bo patrolled the sidelines has preached one thing: Execution, Execution, Execution. The reason for this is that football is first, and foremost, a game of brute athletic strength and coordination. All things being equal, the bigger stronger guy will usually win. To combat that, there is coaching. For the faster smaller guy to win he must out execute the larger man. As you extrapolate that out, a well coached smaller team can beat a bigger team. However, if the bigger, stronger team is coached equally well as the weaker team, the bigger, stronger team should win. There is an apt analogy in hockey, "big fast beats small fast." You have to consistently execute every aspect of the game to be successful, and the only way to do that is to practice the mundane stuff until your brain turns to jelly. But even if it does, you'll remember it. And you'll execute it consistently.
If Hoke's insistence on repetition and "toughness" and the so-called "manball" means Michigan will return to out-executing it's opponents, I'm good with that. Because it's not something Michigan's done a lot of in the last three years. As much as some people would love to see the Oregon style spread, there are others who like watching a well executed pro set. Oregon's flashy and fun, but it requires a level of execution that hasn't been present at Michigan since the mid part of Lloyd Carr's tenure.
As boring as people like to make Michigan's old offense sound, I think we forget how much fun it really was. What about Brady to Terrell or those long runs from Chris Perry? What about A Train leveling the boom on some fool as he plowed his way into the endzone? I remember bouncing up and down as these things happened. I remember being excited. This dirty, old man, mustachioed offense was pretty damn entertaining to watch. And with a rocket armed passer, who also happens to be rocket legged, I'm just as excited to see Michigan play this season as I was last season.
What it comes down to is winning. I am neither old nor mustachioed, and I don't have a clue who this Beckmann guy is. If this coaching staff can generate and offense anything like the ones we saw from 2001-2007, I'll be happy. I think they've got a pretty good chance of being good based on the return of the majority of an offensive line that averages nearly 300 pounds and all but one starter on offense.
Frankly, it doesn't matter what kind of offense that Michigan runs. Michigan will score points. Why the switch to a proven offense is such a concern is beyond me. What matters is whether the defense will improve. So, to me at least, going into this season not knowing how the offense will operate is far less terrifying than going into another season with Greg Robinson and knowing just how bad the defense will be. And that, more so than the numbers on offense and whether Denard wins the Heisman, will determine the success of this team.
44 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Forgive me for quoting "The Fast and the Furious"
but I can’t put it any better than this:
“It doesn’t matter if you win by an inch or a mile; winning’s winning.”
As for a more specific take, I think a big factor that is being overlooked in this whole spread vs. pro debate is time of possession. While there are times where that stat means nothing, it can also have a big impact on a team with a defense as crappy as ours might be. Basically, the less time our defense spends on the field, the better. Rich Rod’s spread Lambo was at its best when outrunning the other team up the field, both during and between plays. I don’t know the number of possessions where we scored in less than 2 minutes last season, but I remember it being retardedly high (like Ryan Mallett!). The pro style offense will undoubtedly slow down, and if we’re able to out-execute fools again, the defense shouldn’t spend as much time on the field as they have the last few seasons.
RR's offense can dictate tempo just as well as a pro-style offense
He could kill the clock down if we had a lead – problem was, this rarely happened.
The RR spread has the advantage of flexibility – it can go fast or slow. One of the drawbacks to pro-style is that its a little harder to go fast if you don’t practice no-huddle.
Dictating tempo has nothing to do with what I said
Based on the stats, RR’s offense was most effective when they weren’t huddling and getting to the line as fast as possible, minimizing defensive substitutions and communication. This killed time of possession, and our already crappy defense spent too much time on the field.
Yeah it does.
You can use up the entire playclock out of the no-huddle just as easily as with a huddle. Sure, you get to the line fast, but then you wait for the playcall as long as you like.
http://espn.go.com/ncf/playbyplay?gameId=302470130&period=4
4th Quarter of the UConn game was one of the few times that Michigan had a late lead and wanted to kill the clock. 15 play drive lasts 8 minutes.
If you’re talking about TOP, RR’s offense runs more than most, so the clock keeps going more than in most offenses.
Are you just arguing that our offense will lose its quick-strike, big-play capability and therefore the defense will be better? I mean, sure an 8 minute drive is better than a 2 minute drive for resting up the defense, but the bottom line is you want to score. What a ‘slow’ offense does is remove time of the clock and therefore take possesions out of the game — for both teams. This means your offense gets fewer shots too. Which is fine, if you have a lead. But if you’re behind (and Michigan mostly was) you want to extend the game by playing up-tempo.
TOP isn’t a problem inherent to the spread. You’d be better served arguing that the defense should have limited its time on the field by making some stops once in a while.
Forgiving me for quoting “The Fast and the Furious” …
I was really hoping you were going to say
I live my life a quarter mile at a time.
Joshd12
Brock University
BA. Sports Management, 2014
BA. Recreation and Leisure Studies, 2011
Well said
Very well said Dave. I completely agree that every statistic needs context in order to draw any reasonable conclusions from it.
I also can’t understand why the pre-RR offense was ‘boring.’ Having a sneaky-fast receiver stretch the sidelines after 2 off-tackle runs (ala Hart-Henne-Braylon/Manningham) gets me jumping out of my seat.
Honestly I am excited to see an athletically gifted QB in a pro offense.
"My perception, sort of going back, looking at the Lions from the outside in, was the Lions would always change courses and overreact. To be at the point now where we were competitive in every game ... We need to stay on that track. We don't need to change course." - Jim Schwartz
Give me the proverbial "slap"
if this is off-base, but I feel like Denard is still going to be the Wayne Gretzky of college football in the sense that every time he touches the ball the overwhelming feeling is “OH MY GOD HE’S GOING TO SCORE”
I think the spread is the way to go now since the running backs don’t really do much in inspiring confidence. That said, what I really want to see is a healthy Denard all year, and hopefully this will provide that.
SDSU’s offense didn’t look impressive against TCU though it was. When we eased off in the fourth they came right back at us. Weird game.
I think that's fair... but...
I think you make the big point in your second sentence. If you want your play maker to excel, you can’t have him dinged up. Denard was getting killed in last season’s offense because he was the primary ball carrier. Personally, I think you’ll see a lot of improvement out of the running backs in a more traditional pro-set. Why? Because it’s what most of them ran in high school and it’s something that will allow Michigan’s bigger backs to run downhill through the line. So many of Michigan’s running plays for the tailbacks involved them stringing the defense out and looking for cut back lanes. Here, we can allow big backs like Hopkins, Shaw, and (hopefully) Cox to get the ball and go straight ahead. This is where they’ll be most effective because none of them are cut back RBs. It’ll also allow Smith to actually be that change of pace back that he’s best suited for. Granted I’m projecting things here, but anything that allows Denard to stay healthy is good in my book and I think this will take some of the strain off of him and cut down on the number of hits he took. Denard had 256 carries last season. That’s nine less that Mike Hart had in 2007. You can’t do that to a quarterback, he’s just not built to take that kind of punishment.
I think regardless of the system, we have to take the pressure and the hits off the quarterback and the pro-set (to me at least) seems like a viable option to do that. And I think we’ll get a lot more production out of our backs in the process.
regarding your comment about the TCU/SDSU game, you’re right. 300 yards isn’t as many as you’d like to see and the fact that SDSU scored 14 points in the final quarter to make it close may be misleading. But the game ended up being only 5 points, SDSU scored 21 in the second half and held TCU to 6. That’s an impressive point total on a really good defense, when you consider that one of best offenses in the conference couldn only mangage 20 (without turning the ball over, too).
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Mar 29, 2011 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions
well...
To go along with what Maize n Brew Dave is saying, I don’t think Rodriguez did a good job of recruiting and developing running backs. Shaw wasn’t really built for the spread, because he’s not a cutback runner. Hopkins lacks the ability to be effective in a zone read option, too, in my opinion. Smith is THEORETICALLY the best type of player suited for the role, but he’s not talented enough to be an effective starter in the Big Ten. Personally (and I know most of the internet is against me), I think the guys with the best ability to cut back with any kind of speed and power have been Minor and Cox, neither of whom was recruited by Rodriguez. Toussaint could have been successful in the spread, but he was injured for most of his first two years on campus.
by MagnusThunder on Mar 29, 2011 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions
While I do respect Pro-Style...
1) Most of those offenses had at least decent kickers. As rough as kicker has seemed in the past, it has never been as pitiful as last year. The offense really struggled to convert on 4th downs that no offense would normally attempt. The lack of ANY kicking game really hurt the offense.
2) Field position was consistently terrible. Although I have no hard numbers to back this up, we all know how rare it was for the D to stop anyone in their own territory and gain a short field. Our return game was also generally poor and rarely yielded field position changing returns both on punts and kickoffs.
3) You cannot actually be blaming the 7-6 record on the offense. In case you missed it, this season featured the worst D in school history. Yet the offense managed to get us to a (perhaps undeserved) New Year’s Day bowl game. Give this offense a typical UM defense from 00-06 and I think we’re a 10-2 team easily last year and Denard is the clear runner-up to Cam Newton in Heisman voting.
4) I don’t know about other fans, but my favorite football play ever is now the fake bubble screen and go that we ran in quite a few games for a big play down-field. I looked forward to seeing when/if Rich would dial this one up every game.
I do agree, however, that keeping Denard healthy may be just as important and hopefully the change in scheme keeps him healthier.
these are...
…the “caveats” that Maize n Brew Dave mentioned in the opener.
Regarding #3, I don’t think he’s blaming the offense for the 7-6 record. As mentioned above, one of the “caveats” is the defense. Regardless of what kind of offense you have, it’s going to be a struggle to win if your defense sucks. Rodriguez was fired because he never fielded even a competent defense. So while the offense might take a step back in production, the defense SHOULD improve significantly in the coming year(s) which might very well make up for the less explosive offense.
by MagnusThunder on Mar 29, 2011 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
in response to #3
Nobody can say with a straight face that our offense was the reason for our record this past year. An interesting point was brought up on MGo earlier in the season regarding the inability of the offense to finish drives – we had yard upon yard of offense in several Big10 games, but failed to score (see #1 above)
While we still had a decent ranking for Points/Yard, many have pointed out that our offensive stats are skewed by the first 4 games of last season. I’ll take the referenced post with a grain of salt.
I like your point about our return game being very poor. I did not like how RR liked to use different return men all the time. Stonum is our best return man and yet he was almost never back for us. I’m from the school of thought that when you find someone who catches the ball every time and has consistently good returns you always use them.
by Brocolis154033 on Mar 31, 2011 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
I dont care if we run...
the triple option, as long as we consistently win games and compete for big ten championship! i am tired of being pushed around, and that is what RR’s team did. get pushed around. also, they had NO mental toughness. the dropped passed, the turnovers, etc. was horrible watching it.
the difference between auburn, tcu, oregon, and other really good spread teams is they fielded a DEFENSE!
if we want to win, we have to focus on execution and DEFENSE.
GO BLUE!
sjw
by Shane Shawn Ward on Mar 29, 2011 10:38 AM CDT reply actions
I think that both sides of this argument are over-hyping what the offense will look like to some extent. It’s not like we’re completely junking the spread offense or completely committing to the I-formation on all three downs. Fans of the spread offense will be relieved to see Michigan still going three and four wide, while fans of the pro-style offense will be happy to see the return of the fullback and two tight end sets.
As long as Denard is our quarterback, we’re not going to be able to run a pure pro-style offense, he’s just too short to consistently drop back and pass behind the line. We’ll probably continue to see a lot of designed roll outs to give Denard the option of either throwing the ball down field or taking off if no one’s open.
I liked the spread offense, but ultimately I’m a fan of whatever offense helps Michigan win football games. As long as the pro style offense doesn’t become predictable, I’m fine with going back to it.
This is my hope as well.
And why I think the argument between MGo and MnB crowd is pretty silly. There can be a happy medium between running the RB behind a FB into the line on 2/3s of the plays and running Denard 35 times a game.
The difference is that MGo is just expressing concern, while MnB is picking a fight, arguing with strawmen and attributing views to were never made.
“Borges should install his passing game immediately and Michigan should start running power schemes more frequently”. Who said that again? Brian Cook
Turnovers, turnovers, turnovers...
Turnovers lost per game
0.92 – 2006 (11-2)
1.31 – 2002 (10-3)
1.33 – 2000 (9-3)
1.46 – 2003 (10-3)
1.50 – 2005 (7-5)
1.75 – 2004 (9-3)
2.08 – 2007 (9-4)
2.08 – 2002 (8-4)
2.23 – 2010 (7-6)
2.33 – 2009 (5-7)
2.50 – 2008 (3-9)
Give me an offense that can hold onto the ball and not put the defense in bad spots.
amen.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Mar 29, 2011 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
adjusted per possession?
The ’10 offense had a lot more plays, so were they really worse at it?
They were also playing from behind a lot more than those other teams.
I agree turnovers were a problem, but the progress from ’08 to ’10 under the circumstances (first year starter at QB, program instability) indicate that progress was significant.
significant progress?
Michigan was dead last in the NCAA in turnovers in November of 2010 – when the season was on the line. Michigan finished #106 in total turnovers.
Auburn finished #16.
2.5, 2.3, 2.2
That seems like progress, especially considering the D got progressively worse thereby putting more pressure on the offense to score faster and more frequently.
I agree...
…that turnovers are bad. But I really didn’t think the offense put the defense in horrible situations this past season. I mean, a bad spot for Michigan’s defense was the opponent’s 1-yard line. It really didn’t matter that much. I’m not saying I want Michigan to keep giving up the ball 2+ times a game, but it’s a bit misleading as to why we were 7-6.
by MagnusThunder on Mar 29, 2011 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Giving the opponents's offense extra opportunities to score is always bad.
But I agree that it’s not the number one reason the offense struggled. There was no rushing threat beyond the QB. Brandon Minor was the only RB able to run effectively in the Rodriguez offense against higher-level defenses. Additionally, the passing attack was unable to stretch the field consistently.
Extremely Poorly Argued Work
I actually agree with your larger point – that offense is about more than yards per carry or yards per attempt. I’m a big believer that the best semi-conventional aggregate offensive stat that we have is PPP (points per possession), and Rich Rodriguez’s offense was not particularly impressive in that regard against B1G teams.
But trying to debunk Cook’s argument by pointing out a weak correlation between wins and yards per whatever is beyond silly. Everyone is painfully aware that the problem with last year’s team (and the reason for only 7 Ws) is on the other side of the ball. Yet you ignore defense till the last line. This is more than ‘a caveat’ as Thunder argues. Its a gaping hole in the logic of your argument.
“The argument that Michigan was a hair away from being awesome is based on Michigan’s yards per game. The argument that Michigan was good and not great is based on points per game.”
This shows you’re missing the point. The argument about being on the verge of greatness is based on ypc and ypa — not total yards per game. Any fool can divide and see that possessions and attempts were astronomically high thanks to an inept D. Further, the ’10 offense was still pretty good at points, but not so good at PPP.
The anticipation of greatness is based on the idea that the brilliance of the offense, (occasionally visible in ’09 and frequently visible in ’10) would become always visible in ’11 (with a veteran OL and returning starter at QB for the first time). Like WVU. Its not an absurd leap to trend the offense forward.
None of that has anything to do with pro-style offense and it’s effectiveness.
What goes unanswered is WHY those yards per numbers look so great in the spread yet the offense couldn’t score against good teams. Was it just turnovers, was it short-yardage situations, red-zone issues, just bad luck? What exactly was Michigan doing wrong that made the impressive YPC and YPA numbers so misleading? AND - What is it about a pro-style offense or manball toughness that will improve on those factors?
A few more points to quibble with:
“Michigan’s passing offense should improve quite a bit "
Is there any logic to this statement (e.g. Denard will be healthier, Borges is a better passing coach, Denard will be a better passer)? Denard was 12 in the nation in YPA and 20th in QB rating. I’m skeptical he’ll improve into being a top 10 passer this year given the turnover in scheme and philosophy. Generally a strong running game opens up the passing game and if Michigan’s run game is worse off (as everyone seems to think it will be), the passing game will probably follow. Hope I’m wrong.
“If Hoke’s insistence on repetition and “toughness” and the so-called “manball” means Michigan will return to out-executing it’s opponents, I’m good with that. "
Yeah, so is Brian and everyone else. They win and we’re happy. The issue is that words are meaningless. What will you think of Manball if the defense improves dramatically (from say 100th best in the nation to around 40th) yet we only win 2 more games because, despite the improvement in defense, the offense drops from (10th to say 50th)? Does that mean success for Manball or is Manball the new (old) liability that holds the team back.
Its not just about defense or offense its about both. Everyone expects the defense to get much better – and that was the primary problem with RR. But since we’re talking, here, about offense (manball/pro-style) the concern of a regression lies there.
Maybe the offense wasn’t as great as it seemed by some stats, but it was still damn good for a Work-In-Progress with a raw first-time starter at QB. The concern is that we will regress from that because of a bull-headed (mustachioed) stubbornness that something as proven as the spread offense is only for pussies. The greater concern is that the (hypothetical) offensive regression will offset the (assumed) progress on defense.
4 more than our '07 offense
that had Henne, Hart, Manningham, Long, etc. in a pro-style set.
I realize Henne was hurt – so was Robinson.
Its not like 2010 was the first time a great OSU defense shut down a quality offense.
I appreciate the reply, but I think you missed some things.
This article solely concerns itself with talking about the offense because that was what it was responding to. An article about the offense and the type of offense that will be run this year by Michigan. Supporters of the spread like to say how great the offense was despite the defense, kicking game, whatever. I acknowledge head on that these are valid points. However, I point to competing statistics to make the point that, a) the offense wasn’t that good by a critical metric (points); and 2) an offense running the pro-set (Michigan’s or SDSU’s) produced nearly as much offensively as the spread did. Furthermore, the pro-set that’s being decried managed to rack up more points than the spread in 2010. I think these are valid reasons to be excited about the transition and valid reason for people to relax a bit concerning the transition.
You’ll notice that Brian’s original article did not address defense at all. It dealt solely with what kind of offense will be run and why switching offenses is a bad idea. I offered a counter argument as to why this wasn’t as big a deal as people are making it out to be because of the declining ability of the offense to perform as the season wore on. I also point out that the system we’re returning to works. All of a sudden we’re not going to turn into a bunch of dribbling idiots that can’t move the ball. I threw in the defensive comment because in the long run the offense will be fine, and the final question we should be concerning ourselves with is defense.
You say that:
Trying to debunk Cook’s argument by pointing out a weak correlation between wins and yards per whatever is beyond silly.
I don’t see why. Spread supporters get to use one statistic to support his position but no one else can? They’re statistics. They can be used to support anyone’s position. That’s part of my point. Using YPC to support the position that the 2010 offense was OMG AWEZOME! is his perogative. Using the declining ypc, ypcomp, and scoring to show that it was not is mine. On a separate track, to butress my I show that Michigan’s pro-style attacks actually outgained the spread in the air and were very successful. So by the rationale of ypc being indicative of a great offense, then if yp comp is better we should immediately switch to a passing attack. Then there’s the point that we won more under a pro-set, this is a flawed statistic but a statistic. Then there are the number of points scored throughout the year, month by month and in total. But all of these are singular statistics that mean little by themselves. That’s it. YPC alone doesn’t automatically equate to an offense of death .
So much of both sides’ argument is based on suposition. Is the argument that Denard will improve as a passer this year under Borges’ tutelage any different than spread proponents saying that Michigan would’ve imrpoved apreciably in holding onto the ball despite three straight years of evidence to the contrary? I think they’re fair arguments either way. But one doesn’t trump the other.
The numbers we cite here go to the larger point that the offense will be just fine. Seriously. That’s my point. Why people are ready to throw Hoke and Borges into a thresher for installing an offense that is proven to work with players that are suited to run it is beyond me. I conceed that the offense may not be as prolific as it might be if all the things Brian and I point out were remedied. However, I think people need to conceed that these are not insubstanital things to fix. I also think they need to conceed that this offense will be pretty good no matter what kind of set it runs.
In closing I’ll address the gulf between the sides that I think you have quite eloquaintly summed up:
The concern is that we will regress from that because of a bull-headed (mustachioed) stubbornness that something as proven as the spread offense is only for pussies. The greater concern is that the (hypothetical) offensive regression will offset the (assumed) progress on defense.
I think there is a misconception that people who are supporting Hoke and Borges think that the spread and Rodriguez were “for pussies.” Over the last three years I’ve spent countless words defending it and Rodriguez from such an assertion. I part ways with MGo and some of the spread supporters, when it comes to the assertion that people supporting Hoke are Bull-headed, mustachioed, and/or stubborn.
Look, I supported Rodriguez we he came in and blew the whole offense up. And let’s be clear, the offense wasn’t the problem with Michigan under Carr. With a few exceptions, Michigan ran an effective offensive system. But I supported the change. Now the same thing is happening again, and I’m supporting the change. Why? Because I want this team to be successful. The change is happening and will happen regardless of what any of us say, and calling people bull-headed, mustachioed, and/or stubborn doesn’t help anyone or make the situation better.
All of us wanted the spread offense to be as good as it’s proponets have advocated that it will be. But it wasn’t, and pointing to a single statistic to tell us how good the offense really was doesn’t do it for me or for a lot of people. The fact that I and many other people are welcoming the pro-set back to Ann Arbor doesn’t make us less of a fan or a neanderthal (though I know you’re not acusing us of that here). We just differ significantly on how we view the effectiveness of the spread, and the contention put forth in the original article that people who don’t see this possess a lesser intelligence is insulting and juvenile.
Nowhere in the MGo piece is your last point mentioned, but it is the subtler subtext. Will the offense regress to the point that the defensive improvement is offest? On that point we all have our own bias. I think think the offense won’t regress as much as Brian fears. I also think that the defense will improve by leaps and bounds. The result, as I said at the end of the piece is that we shouldn’t be worrying about the offense. It will be fine and it will score points. I think the pessimism is misplaced and that’s why I wrote this.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Mar 29, 2011 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Disagree with...well, almost everything
I appreciate that the article focuses on just offense. But if you’re doing that, why spend so much time talking about wins? Wins are not a good stat for measuring an offense. Wins are a statistic that is based on offense AND defense, approximately equally. So if you’re talking about offense, look at offensive stats – don’t muddle the analysis with something that depends on an independent matter. Thats what Brian did. Yards per carry isn’t much influenced by defense. Neither is points per possession, which is the statistic you want to be using if making a case against the ’10 offense.
You keep asserting that the offense didn’t really score that many points – yet they were 25th in the nation – with one of the harder schedules (23rd according to Sagarin) in the country. Yes, they tailed off as the season progressed – like any other team their production depends on their level of competition. You can cherry-pick stats from an individual month, but who else played Wisconsin, Ohio State and Illinois caliber defenses in that month? Michigan scored more than anyone else against Illinois even before OT, and only one team managed to score more against Wisconsin. If that lands you 68th in the country, maybe thats not such a bad thing.
You’re idea that the offense “wasn’t that good” just isn’t supported by meaningful facts. Yes, the offense was shut down by Ohio State, but even ‘great’ Michigan offenses from years past were slowed in some games. What is the standard you’re comparing to?
Any advanced measures that take opponents into consideration say Michigan was a top 25 offense, if not top 10. So do most conventional measures. They weren’t unstoppable, but they were pretty darn good at scoring points against most teams. The least you could do is provide some point of comparison to previous Michigan offenses in terms of points, since thats where you’re arguing their weakness lies.
“I show that Michigan’s pro-style attacks actually outgained the spread in the air and were very successful”
Where do you show this? The chart you have has the ‘10 offense with the second highest or best passing offense (depending on if you use yards or ypc). All that table shows is that YPComp isn’t a very good indicator of Wins – which, Duh…it ignores defense.
Saying “look a pro-style offense can score points too” is arguing with a strawman. We’ve all remember USC and Reggie Bush. The point of contention is whether Robinson can be as effective in it as he was in the spread.
So by all means, go ahead and explain why ypc and ypa aren’t good indicators of a quality offense. You haven’t done that here. What you’ve done is muddled together a hodge podge of stats that show what you want them to show – exactly what you’re accusing Mgoblog of. Tit for tat, you seem to say, but there are so many more logical holes in your argument that it only serves to strengthen Brian’s.
Its true that stats can lie but there is some room to look for objective and not easily refutable evidence. You haven’t done that here. You’ve strained to find a counter-argument so badly that you’ve ignored common sense (e.g. defense affects wins). You seem to imply that all statistics are equally valid – which is (should be) obviously preposterous.
Again, its not the larger point that you’re trying to make thats the problem, its how you choose to make it. That is – very poorly. I agree that the offense will be ‘fine’ – its hard not to be fine with the returning B1G POY and a bunch of other returning starters. But ‘fine’ is well below the bar that was set last year.
“Is the argument that Denard will improve as a passer this year under Borges’ tutelage any different than spread proponents saying that Michigan would’ve imrpoved apreciably in holding onto the ball despite three straight years of evidence to the contrary?”
Well, for starters the post you gave an ‘amen’ to said that turnovers had dropped from 2.5, to 2.3, to 2.2. So, thats evidence of improvement right there. Secondly, Denard almost certainly WILL improve as a passer, just by virtue of experience, but will that manifest itself in a better offense – one that scores more points, despite what you admit might be an inferior running game? It would seem not necessarily.
I don’t think Brian was saying YOU think the spread is for pussies, I think he was worried that HOKE thinks it’s for pussies and therefore will take away what a very good (but, OK, not yet GREAT) offense knew best. This doesn’t seem like an unreasonable area of concern.
I also don’t think that Brian is laying a blanket statement on all Hoke supporters as being bull-headed. He’s talking specifically about the MANBALL and the idea of old-school power runs are more valuable.
I guess the bottomline here is that you’re not providing much information or analysis that is going to dissuade a spread advocate…and it’s not because they’re being bull-headed its because your stats and arguments don’t hold much water.
“I think think the offense won’t regress as much as Brian fears. I also think that the defense will improve by leaps and bounds. The result, as I said at the end of the piece is that we shouldn’t be worrying about the offense.”
I agree with the first 2 sentences but not the 3rd. I don’t see why we can’t have the best of both worlds. An offense that moves the ball using spread concepts that utilize Denard’s skills, but limits his exposure to injury and keeps defenses more off-balance. I suspect you and Brian don’t disagree with me there. Again, its doesn’t have to be 100% POWER I SMASH or 100% ZONE-READ SCAMPER.
Hoke tough talk about MANBALL indicate that thats not going to be the case, and that has Brian worried. To which saying “don’t worry, worrier” isn’t very convincing. SDSU’s success (their offense was impressively ranked 12th in FEI not far off Michigan’s #2) is more convincing. But the question remains about Denard and the fit in that offense. Can Borges do repeat it with his typical kind of QB? You say “why not?” while Brian is pessimistic and worries. Complaining about either persons view seems a little petty to me.
I guess I’d rather see a “why it will work” post, rather than a “well, the last thing wasn’t so awesome anyway” post.
by lankownia on Mar 29, 2011 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think we're going in circles here
I’ll respond to a couple of your critiques, but I don’t think we’re going to reach an agreement here. Perhaps it’s better to agree to disagree.
1) Cherry picking stats – Dude. Really?
2) Discussing Wins and Losses – I discuss this in the context of stats being able say anything. I talk about the win/losses and conclude with the following sentence: “But does this really mean anything at all? Not really.”
3) Selective stats and the argument in general – You’re melding a lot of different arguments and confusing the main points here. Everything you’re basing your position on next year’s offense is based on supposition and selective statistics. And so is mine. I just admit it. But let’s look at your rebuttals.
When I point out the fact that Michigan isn’t scoring points against tough competition your response is “68th is okay based on competition.” When I point out that the offense run by SDSU last season (a version similar to what Michigan will run next year) was more consistent, averaged almost as many yards and scored more points than Michigan last year, you tell me I’m arguing a straw man. When I tell you my position is that scoring points is my definition of a “quality offense” you assert that ypc and ypa are the only measures that should be used. I admit before the jump that in terms of yardage that the 2010 team was the most prolific in modern Michigan history but that I do not believe it was the most effective (based on the four links I include on this [one on first half performance, one on declining output, one on an inability to hold onto the ball, and one on an inability to produce points when it mattered]), then you tell me I’m not supporting my argument.
You keep coming back to my failure to discuss the defense as a fault in my logic, but you continue to insist that Michigan’s defense is what held back last year’s offense. I point to declining scoring offense month to month to month and you suggest I’m cherry picking stats, but then you insist that improving Michigan’s turn over ratio by .1 is showing improvement. You’re telling me that my statistics are meaningless when I explicitly say that in my article. You tell me that the offense was awesome, but state it was awesome against “most teams”. You caveat your argument without even admitting it.
This isn’t about numbers. This is about an offense working well enough to put Michigan in a position to win ball games. You’re decrying the move to pro-set because you feel we won’t be able to win ball games as a result. I argue that it will. I also argue that people’s concern over the change is overblown. Why? Because once you get past the first month of the 2010 season and into the conference season, the offense sputtered and struggled to score points (check out the link on first half stats). Here’s a taste:
In the Wolverines’ five conference losses they had deficits of 7 (MSU), 14 (Iowa), 18 (PSU), 24 (Wisc), and 17 (OSU). The result was an average first half deficit of -16 points.
Awesome offenses aren’t trailing by three scores going into the half. And don’t tell me the defense is to blame on this.
In 2010, in Michigan’s five conference losses, the Woverines averaged 6.8 points per first half…. In 2010 Michigan managed to put up 31 points on Illinois and in spite of that the Wolverines only averaged 12.5 points per first half in conference play.
Last season’s offense was anemic in the first half of conference games. If you’re looking for a solid reason to say this offense wasn’t as good as people pretend it was, there you go. Against good teams in conference, Michigan’s hair-away-from-planet-destroying offense averaged less than a touchdown in the first half of those games.
This wasn’t a tear down last year’s offense piece. This was a “Hey, things are going to be fine piece” that objectively looked at last season’s offense and determined that things would be fine on offense. I attempted to provide support (in numbers, links, and personal observations about the pro-set, Michigan and SDSU) for the argument that the offense will be fine. And in doing so I also argued that people belittling those who support the coach for doing changing it is counter productive.
It’s clear you don’t agree with my position on this. I respect that and it’s fine with me. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Mar 29, 2011 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Execution: You do it or It be done to you?
RR was not fired because he ran the spread. The spread offense would work at Michigan as well as has at Oregon or anywhere in the country. The spread, pro-style, winged-T or the Wish-bone will work with execution. It doesn’t matter what offense we run. Players need to execute the plays that are called. That is why RR was fired. Not because of the spread, but because he couldn’t get his players to consistantly execute the spread, the 3-3-5 defense, or God-dang field goal. I think RR was depending on things getting done at Michigan without having to work for it. Some how at big named U’s things are done by wishing them to be. We needed a coach that was willing to work to get things done.
SIB,SIA: Having a lousy D is no excuse for the O to consistantly be inconsistant. So the D doesn’t get a stop, the O still gets the ball back. They may play from behind, but that shouldn’t be a big deal for that miraculously robust spread O, should it?
by PreachinTotheChoir on Mar 29, 2011 12:30 PM CDT reply actions
I don't think...
…Rodriguez lacked the desire to “work to get things done.” I think he concentrated his efforts in certain areas, made a couple bad hires, etc. But I will never question the amount of work he put in at Michigan while he was here. Let’s not allow the Rodriguez criticism to get out of hand.
by MagnusThunder on Mar 29, 2011 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I Missed My Point
I should have put it the way Magnus put it. I am wrong to say RR didn’t work hard. He did work hard, I don’t doubt that. What I should have said is that while working hard at parts, I think he thought fundamentals would some how tale care of themselves. I could be wrong and anyone can dispute it, but they just seemed like they lacked the discipline needed to get better and they did not progress as the season progressed. That is a poor reflection on the coach. In regards to criticism of RR, I try not to let down my perspective.
by PreachinTotheChoir on Mar 29, 2011 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Execution + Talent = Wins, regardless of scheme
Superior execution and superior talent trumps scheme everyday of the week, and twice on Sunday. Oregon and Auburn won with the spread, USC won with pro-style, Florida has dominated alternatively with the spread and fun ‘n gun. Option, zone read, power-I, fun ’n gun, pro-set. It doesn’t matter. Talent and execution matter. To be an elite team you need both.
Whenever new offensive schemes sweep college football, it’s more a matter of opening the door to an underrecruited type of talent. That’s MGo’s whole thesis, in fact. Denard is a 5 star spread talent, and a 3-4 star pro-style talent. If nobody in college football was running the spread, Denard would be a WR or RB somewhere. But open the possibility of the spread, and voila! Denard the Dilithium QB!
I do think the RR experiment was a failure, not becuase of the spread, but becuase he could not get his talent to execute. The offense was improving under RR, but it was talent based improvement. There just wasn’t any convincing proof that execution was improving, quite the contrary.
For every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand, and wrong.
I'd love to know...
if people would be freaking out about the offense had Harbaugh accepted the job.
I think you know the answer to that.
sigh…
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Mar 29, 2011 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, we'd all be singing ... KumbaJim, my Denard, KumbaJim.
Seriously, that’s about the best criticism of the MGo concerns to this I’ve heard. If JH were coach, would MGo be worried that the pro-style offense wasn’t a perfect fit for Dilithium? No way.
This is all about underlying discomfort with Hoke and company’s ability to execute “manball”. Not about scheme per se.
For every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand, and wrong.
by MosherJordan on Mar 29, 2011 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly
This is all about underlying discomfort with Hoke and company’s ability to execute "manball". Not about scheme per se.
This is a weak argument
First off, there would be concerns about Denard transition from the Spread, regardless.
If you think people wouldn’t be wringing their hands if Harbaugh came and said he envisioned Denard running the same stuff Luck did, you’re nuts.
No
“Michigan’s defense is what held back last year’s offense”
No, Michigan’s D held back the TEAM. The offense and defense operate largely independently of one another. Therefore, I’m saying use offensive stats to evaluate the offense instead of TEAM stats like wins. It’s pretty simple.
“You caveat your argument without even admitting it.”
Is an admission necessary?
The main point you seem to make here is that I’m criticizing your stats while citing others. I hear you, but again, not all stats are created equally. The numbers, in aggregate, and the conventional wisdom, both say the offense was quite good. The burden of proof lies on your side of the debate. Just as it lies with Borges to show that Denard can be successful outside of a spread, because we’ve already seen it.
Its great that you want to have a critical debate, but you can’t just throw a bunch of poorly constructed statistics together into a chart and say “see, numbers say what you want them to”. Everyone knows stats are flawed and imperfect and don’t tell the whole story. But you can’t just throw numbers out there that mean nothing and expect us to conclude that, therefore, all numbers mean nothing. Some stats mean stuff – others don’t. Thats just reality.
Don’t show me a rotten apple and expect me to conclude that apples just don’t taste as good as I think they do. There are bad apples, there are worms, they get stale, and they have a pit — they’re still good and that is conventional thought for a reason.
“You’re decrying the move to pro-set because you feel we won’t be able to win ball games as a result.”
Did I do decry the move? I don’t think I did. I simply expressed concern, as did Brian, that the offense may not fit Denard. I’m no optimist, yet I’ve argued from Day 1 that Hoke would win 9 games and that Borges would figure out a way to meld his philosophy with spread plays that utilize Denard. That doesn’t stop me from worrying that I’m wrong.
This IS about numbers, because you try to justify your opinion with numbers. If you had just said “the pro-style will work” without trying to knock last years offense with stats, I wouldn’t be commenting here.
Again you point to a TEAM stat (deficits) to indict the offense. Again you ignore the historically awful defense. This is the problem – you’re just repeating your mistakes.
“Awesome offenses aren’t trailing by three scores going into the half.”
Really!? I guess Oregon and Auburn’s offenses weren’t very good either. Auburn was down 24-7 against Alabama and Oregon was down 21-3 to Stanford — neither of them had defenses anywhere NEAR as atrocious as Michigan had. The point is – every offense, even great offenses, have times where they slow down.
“This wasn’t a tear down last year’s offense piece.”
Well, maybe thats not how you intended it, but… it was. The bulk of the article is focused on last years offense being “not as good as Brian says”. And thats the piece I’m arguing with.
Again, I agree with the message you TRIED to make. You’re only hearing what you want to hear, because I’ve said this before. What I disagree with is how you went about arguing it. There was a smarter, more coherent, not to mention classier, way to go about it. There’s no reason to spend at least half the time talking about last years offense if your point is that this years offense will be really good.

by 



















